comparison -- two traversos

Irish Flute
1

Recently I lucked out and was able to buy a Baroque/rococco flute made by Patrick Olwell for a very reasonable price. I’ve consulted with Patrick, and he indicated that many years ago he made a handful of A415 flutes based on a Rottenburgh in the Miller collection, as well as some of his own design at A440. I’ve had a von Huene copy of an A. Grenser for the better part of a year now. This is an evaluation and comparison of both. Keep in mind that I’ve been playing the von Huene for ten months and the Olwell for one month, so I’m pretty familiar with the vH but have really only scratched the surface (not literally) of the Olwell.

Construction

The von Huene is made of European boxwood, as was the original, which was made by C. August Grenser in about 1760. The boxwood is stained on the outside and the entire flute, bore and all is sealed with clear marine epoxy. The sealing has been an issue for me. I think my breath has more water vapor in it than that of most people. I can clog an Overton whistle at 20 yards just by thinking about blowing into it. Similarly I tend to have condensation problems at the blowedge of some flutes. When I first got the von Huene, this was extreme; the combination of an impermeable surface and small embouchure hole made for a lot of condensation on the blowedge. But read on. . .

The Olwell is made from rosewood - I’m not certain what kind. It is a faithful copy of a G. A. Rottenburgh from the late 18th century. It is not sealed in any way as far as I know, but I’m having a bit of a problem with condensation. And I’m having much less of a problem with condensation on the von Huene now that I’ve learned how to blow it properly. So much for my theory that it was the sealer on the von Huene.

The Olwell is about an inch longer than the von Huene - this probably indicates that the bore is narrower or that the taper in the bore is different. I’ve measured the diameter at a few points along the bore and it seems pretty similar in the two. The embouchure of the Olwell is about the same length but a little rounder; this may have something to do with the length, too. Anyway, the stretch on the right hand is a little more on the Olwell, making it almost uncomfortable for me. My wife, whose hands are much smaller, is having some difficulty getting used to it.

A pic of both flutes, the von Huene on top, can be found here:
http://home.comcast.net/~partello1/Baroques2.jpg

Playing

The von Huene has what I would call a warm sound. My wife calls it closed; it might also be called throaty, as the sound seems to come from deep within the flute. Since I’ve gotten the hang of playing it (to some extent), I find that it has a nice traditional Baroque/rococco sound. The Olwell has a much brighter sound. My wife fell in love with it as soon as she played it. It’s got a lot more harmonics in it, a little bit of air (this will probably go away with practice), and it’s a lot more open. I think it has a more modern sound despite being a copy of a flute at least as old as the Grenser.

Both flutes have real Baroque/rococco tuning. The F# on the Olwell is a little flatter than that of the von Huene, but both Fnats are very difficult to lip down in the lower octave. Some of the cross-fingerings are a little different. The Olwell is a little sharper on the higher accidentals, so the von Huene really needs the D# vented for the Bflat and Cnat in the upper octave, where it’s optional on the Olwell. This probably comes out in the sound clips, as I play them with identical fingerings (D# vented).

The action of the key is good on each flute. Neither has a tuning slide (the von Huene has a second midsection for A440, though), and as is my habit I play each a little flat - about A410-412. I play both at the same pitch. I’m able to play each in (relative) tune (natural notes) well into the third octave. Most accidentals are easily lipped with fairly standard fingerings. Some of the alternate fingerings are really only appropriate for fast passages (where they’re also necessary).

Sound clips:
von Huene: http://home.comcast.net/~partello1/vonhuenegrenser.mp3

Olwell: http://home.comcast.net/~partello1/olwellrottenburgh.mp3

This is the first movement of the first canonic sonata by Telemann. Obviously it’s not played as a canonic sonata. As you can tell, I’m not really comfortable with the Olwell; this is just to give a glimpse of its sound. I’ve uploaded the whole movement on the vH, only the first minute or so on the Olwell.

Summary

I’m no expert, but I’ve had one expert play the Olwell and two play the von Huene, and they’ve been quite complimentary. Both are made by master craftsmen. I’m amazed that they sound so different yet both are somehow appropriate for the music, of which I play just a little Baroque stuff and a lot of O’Carolan. I’m very pleased with both, and hope to one of these months record some Telemann with the two flutes playing a duet.

2

Come on you guys ( and gals of course)! For once there’s a topic I can really relate to and nobody reacts. I’d do it myself but I’m biased so here’s all I can say with decency:

Dear Chas,

I think it was really brave of you to post this review. I could easily hear the differences between the two flutes. It would have been very helpful if you had included the same piece on an ‘Irish’ flute. I can hear some folk influences in your playing style and was just wondering how it would sound if played on an ‘Irish’ flute.

Luc

3

Hey, I’m even more biased than you Luc, so I obviously can’t comment! :laughing:

Certainly very different sounding instruments though. Good on you for posting the sound clips Charlie, nice to hear such different instruments contrasted.

BTW, with regards to the bore sealing - once they finally sell off their backstock of flutes (might be quite some time), I doubt VH will be “hard sealing” flute bores any more. They switched to a different method for sealing recorder bores while I was there, and the particular sealer that was used on your flute is no longer made.

Besides that, Pat doesn’t like dealing with the epoxy sealers, for a variety of reasons, so I think the last of the epoxy sealed VH flutes has been made. The current sealing process they are using produces a noticabley less bright/hard/ sound, but unless something has changed in the last year, they have enough flutes with the epoxied bores to last several years before starting production on a new batch sealed by the new process.


Loren

4

Interesting comments from an economic perspective.

I am amazed that there is enough demand for Baroque flutes that a firm can produce overstock in the expectation that they will sell, whereas Irish flutes seem to be entirely made on comission (for high-end flutes anyway). How many Baroque flautists are there? Are there as many independent shops (makers) as there seem to be for Irish flutes?

5

Plenty! There are less amateurs but much more pros on the traverso, I think. In Europe all major music schools offer courses and all their students need flutes. While Moeck, Mollenhauer and Aulos offer fine factory made instruments, I get the impression that that’s not what students want.

Yes, I can name you at least 10 flutemakers in Europe alone:
Simon Polak
Alain Weemaels
Eugene Crijnen
Pierre Ecochard
Charles Wells
Martin Wenner
Boaz Berney( now in Israel)
Ronald Wick
Gerhard Kowalewsky
Clive Caterall
…

And they have waiting lists!

Luc

6

Was it the reach that primarily caused this or a combination of that and a different embouchure?

Lovely sound clips, by the way.

I wonder if it may have something to do with the level of possible customization? I have never seen a debate about how many keys to put on one of those flutes.

Edit: Never mind, Lucas seems to have answered the question.

7

The only traverso I’ve ever had a chance to play is my old Ralph Sweet maple.

I love the throaty, resonant sound you are getting from these. My Sweet sounds hollow by comparison:

http://flutesite.com/samples/baroqueduet.mp3

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on these flutes and thanks also for sharing your playing.

–James

8

Actually, it’s more about the economics of production, and less about supply and demand: You have remember that VH make many different instruments (flutes, baroque recorders, ren recorders) in different “keys” (sopranino, soprano, alto, tenor, bass), and at different tunings (some altos recorders are available at A=440 and also A=442 or A=443, etc), from different historical instruments (Stansyby Jr., Rippert, Bressan, Grenser, etc.) and the flutes can come with different sections to play at different pitches as well.

What this means is that there are a staggering number of different instruments to be made in the shop, and within a given year, you simply couldn’t make them all, certainly not with just two people working, which is how it was for most of the time I was there.

In addition, a huge amount of time goes into the setting up various lathes, milling machines, drill presses, etc. for each particular section, of each particular instrument, and then more time to tear down each set-up in preparation to set-up to make a different section or different instrument. So, it ends up being hugely inefficient to attempt to make 1 or 2 or 5 or even 10 instruments at a time.

Instead, what VH does is make most instruments in stages, and 50-100 at a time - enough to last several years, which is how long it takes to get through and entire “cycle” there. More or less. The instruments are typically taken to approximately 80% completion, and then finished at a point in the future just before they are shipped.

There are huge advantages to this system, one being that the customer can end up with an instrument that is much more seasoned and stable than would other wise be possible, because the wood is allowed to season for many months, or even years between certain production steps: The wood will have seasoned for 10-20 years in storage, rough turned and gun drilled when production starts, and let to season for a number of months. Then it may be rough reamed, and let rest for another number of months, then reamed to final dimensions and sockets cut (one process) and let set for 6 months or more before being re-reamed. Once again it’s usually left for a number of months and re-reamed again. When the wood no longer shows signs of shrinkage upon reaming, then it would be rough turned, rested a bit more, and then final turned, and sanded, and then on to tone hole drilling, tenon cutting, etc.

The instrument would not be given it’s final dying/staining or whatever finish, nor would keys be fit just yet. The instrument would likely sit in this conditon for a year or more, until previously made same instruments have all be sold, and then when an order comes in, the instrument will be re-reamed one more time, by hand to spec, then dyed, stamped with the maker’s mark and serial number, keys added and padded, final tuned and voiced, etc.


Obviously I’m not listing all the steps, however the end result is that this process is much more efficient over the long haul, and leads to an instrument that is as well seasoned and stable as one can hope for.

The down side to making a so many instruments at a time, is that you obviously have to have lots of lead time, and it’s mentally quite challenging: Making just 50 5 section traversos means you need to end up with 250 sections total, and with boxwood, that means you’ll want to start with 55 pieces per section to account for loss due to defects in the wood. So… Somebody then has to gundrill 275 pieces of box. Then rough turn it, then ream it all, and so on. It’s really quite a physical and mental challange to do things this way, if you can imagine. It’s a very different experience from making just one, or a few, instruments at a time, which is what most makers traverso and “irish” flute makers do.

In retrospect, I expect that Von Huene’s method is quite similar to the way flute makers of old, such as Rudall and Rose, did things, at least based on the information available.

It’s interesting to note that Von Huene sold approx 250 of it’s handmade instruments a year while I was there, however at one time that number was much higher, and there were more shop employees in years past, I think they had 7 or more employees at one point around 15-20 years ago.


Loren

9

Real stupid question.

So you drill out the pieces do you then line up the grain and match color of the wood?

I was under the impression that a flute would be made primarily from one tree rather than several lots of wood. I would have thought that would avoid the two tone wood problem that Ralph Sweet had with the Diamondwood for whistles.

Or am I misunderstanding something.

10

No, you’re not misunderstanding: When you’re working with that much wood, it’s quite easy to match grain and color. Most of VH’s current wood comes from the same grove of trees - in this case all harvested from an english estate that was clearing land some 20 years ago. FVH went over and supervised the processing of the wood himself, as it was being logged,how cool is that?

Regardless though, when you buy wood in quantity, it’s not so hard to match. And, at any rate, finding single pieces of boxwood that are long enough, wide enough, and defect fee enough to make an entire flute out of, is extremely difficult in this day and age, particularly because Boxwood is a slow growing, rather small and shrublike tree.


We did spend a lot of time working to match the color, as well as the grain patterns and alignment, although many of the flutes get dyed too dark to tell.


Loren

11

When I have time, in a couple of weeks, I’ll also record it on a small-holed 1-key Noy, possibly also the Aulos matte black and the von Huene with the A440 midsection for reference.

It’s primarily the embouchure. It works both ways now – I’ve been playing the Olwell almost exclusively for so long that I was more comfortable with it than with the von Huene last night. One thing with the stretch is that the outer diameter is a few mm smaller. That makes up for the greater reach to some extent.

This is fun, folks. I’m glad y’all are enjoying it!

12

Thanks for the thread. Very interesting.

13

Yeah, but I get a little boggled visiting a site like www.baroqueflute.com – check out the number of models!
While there seem to be some multi-purpose flutes, others are remarkably specific. One example: “…seventeenth-century Italian and Dutch divisions, as well as the tender French Airs de cour, sound marvelous on this instrument.”

And we Irish flute players think it’s tricky to choose between a Rudall and a Boosey copy!

14

I don’t see why Chas has to be the only one putting his head above the parapet here so here’s my first non ITM attempt on the flute. Here’s a shakey recording of a bit of Baroqunroll (Handel) on first my 8 key Wilkes and then Boaz Berney’s Grenser, the forked notes sound poor -sigh- maybe that’s why they invented keys.

http://treeshark.com/images/Music/handw.mp3

http://treeshark.com/images/Music/handb.mp3

15

From the above site I found this gem about the piccolo that they sell

The piccolo has a clear but not shrill sound, and can be played in tune, at least by piccolo players.

16

Hey it’s true though: Have you ever handed your wooden flute to a typical Boehm player? Most will play a scale or two and give you the most sour look, just before handing the thing back in disgust.

I’ll never forget handing my Olwell to a Boehm player - this guy has played at the White House on more than one occasion, so he doesn’t suck - and he could barely get a few notes out of it, and the notes he did get were quite out of tune. He just looked at me like, " what is this piece of crap?!?" :laughing:


Loren

17

Thanks very much for posting those, Tree. If you have PDF’s or ABC’s of the piece, I’d love for you to email them to me.


A couple of years ago I was at a lesson and was playing my all-wood Olwell. Teacher asked me to play a few notes on it, which were horribly out of tune. The flute was pretty new to me and I told him I had a dickens of a time playing it in tune (internally; I’m somewhat flat on an absolute scale). He took it from me, played a bunch of stuff in tune well into the third octave and said something like, “Don’t blame it on the flute, the tuning is fine. YOU have to learn to play it in tune.” Then, maybe he thought he was being hard on me and said, “Well, I HAVE been playing simple-system flute for 35 years. . .”

18



This made me wonder … how would I do? So, I took out 6 totally different flutes and played a very simple tune on them. I did not adjust to the flutes. In fact I played the tune only once on each flute, so it was each time a ‘cold start’.
Here are the flutes :

And here are the soundclips:

on a German flute
on a Boehm flute
on an Irish flute
on an English flute
on a traverso
on a baroque piccolo

The flutes are in different pitches which makes comparison somewhat difficult.

I included the English flute because it has horrible tuning with the slide in (which is how I played it, obviously). The baroque piccolo got in because I have one and I wanted to show off :smiley:
The easiest flute to play was the German which has a ‘wave form’ embouchure. The most difficult was the Irish because of the very large holes and the English because of the embouchure and of the keys that were not really airtight.

I don’t want to try and proof anything by this experiment, but I thought you would be interested to hear how an amateur would perform on different flutes. Pros are usually focused on one instrument and would indeed perform much better on one of the flutes and much worse on the others.

Luc

19

Thanks for that Luc. I find comparisons intriguing because there are always things I like about the sound of all of them. The thing is I suppose to make whatever instument you are playing speak as eloquently as you are able. I have certainly found the traverso a great deal of fun to play, but I can see that playing properly in tune is going to take a while to achieve!
Rob