Thing is, back in “the old days”, it was waaaay more firery around here, but my recollection is that, with a few notable exceptions, people got less intensely insulted and infuriated so quickly.
Also, this was much more of a community back then and (most) people acted a bit more like folks would in a decent session. Not so now. I’m tempted to elaborate, but I can almost feel the heat coming off Nano’s coals just thinking about it. 
And if memory serves, much of the repartee in “the old days” had significantly more/nuanced wittiness (I’m now thinking about folks from that era, like Bloomfield) than some of the cyber-skirmishes we’ve been witness to lately here on good ol’ C&F. And I can’t help but wonder if how people act/treat one another on social media (esp. F-book) has infiltrated the old ways, before the dark times…
If by “dark times” you mean C&F now, I have a rather different take on it. It helps to remember that as we now know it, the greater social media phenomenon coincided with, and was no doubt the cause of, the dimming of C&F’s former - and special - brand of vibrancy. But as I look back, I’m very tempted to say, “What of it?” And why? Because it also helps to remember that the lion’s share of that vibrancy found expression in the Pub, an ephemeral side-show that spilled over into the edges of the dedicated business of our musical ethos - an ethos which still hasn’t changed, BTW. So let’s not be distracted by the comparison of mere surface appearances. Before the advent of Facebook etc, C&F and other specialty sites like it were all there was for social media - hence the craziness of earlier times - but then as now, our sweep is necessarily limited by the special interests we cultivate: as it says in the CCCP, “This ain’t 4chan.” And to that I say, “Amen.” If C&F lived or died on goofy high spirits and folderol alone, we’d’ve been sunk long ago. Instead, we’ve gone from adolescence to maturity. Don’t mistake maturity for decrepitude. While they try, and for as dizzyingly varied as they are, I don’t think Reddit or Quora can ever match us as a go-to for our musical interests. People are still joining C&F, and almost every day. Do you know that there are two (oops, now three) new legitimate applicants awaiting activation as I type this? There were four yesterday, and numbers like this are commonplace. Is this an accident? I don’t think so. Whether they participate is another matter, and I’m not going to second-guess that; we have instruments and tunes requiring our discussion in the meantime.
We’ve never lost the room for color and goofiness; maybe a lot of us have outgrown it, for lack of a better word. Or maybe folks are drained by world circumstances. But whether we pursue a more entertaining vibrancy or not, that is on each of us, not someone else. In any case, as Bill S. Preston, Esq. said so well: “Be excellent to each other.” We alone make C&F inviting - or not. Public rancor only scares off the newcomers, and that is opportunity lost.
@Nano – Well, there we go…lost in translation again (now, where is C3PO when we need him?) By “the dark times” I really meant how online dialogue has been affected for the worse by all the vitriolic shenanigans we see on FB, Twitter, and other social media where users spout off emotionally-charged opinions without much forethought. Although C&F has indeed been through some changes since I joined back in 2003, I wholeheartedly appreciate the forums here as a one of a kind place to be among kindred spirits. And props to all of you mods for keeping things running as smoothly as possible. 
Well, my blackened page still stands anyway. I mean every word of it.
As I mentioned, websites like C&F were the only thing for social media before the big platforms inevitably emerged, and C&F remains enough for me; I find it more existentially manageable, and no part of my life really depends on - or would even be improved by - being so available to the whole world as on other, more global social media. No doubt others have a different take on it; a scientist or business owner would benefit from the connections. But what I am not is lonely enough to be interested in broadcasting my breakfast toast, nor does the world benefit from the opportunity to see it. Likewise I’m not voyeur enough to be interested in your breakfast toast. Sorry if that sounds cold, but there you have it. I need better, more authentic intimacy than distant, aseptic “Likes” or “Dislikes” - the very concept baffles and offends, for it mocks and degrades communication as I understand it. Yes, thanks to social media lives have even been saved, but we all know that the vast, vast majority of it comes nowhere close to that happy but all-too-rare outcome. When Twitter and Facebook popped up it didn’t take a lot of heavy lifting for me to intuitively foresee the negative side, and that was enough for me to steer clear from the start. Maybe I’m a bit of a Hobbit.
As for the negativity, I doubt I have the insight to help anyone. But what I do see is a tendency to normalize strife, and the incentive to de-normalize it is drowned in inertia. It is self-generating, self-perpetuating, and self-devouring. Is this changeable? Of course it is. How likely is that? It starts with the individual, but the sticky part is that it must catch on. TBBH, I’m not optimistic so long as lashing out at the innocent is thought humanly permissible. Greater social media may have been inevitable, but inevitability isn’t always for the best when we don’t face up to our own responsibilities. We don’t have the right to demand a better world when our behavior suggests we have no real interest in one.
Understand that I’m not against greater social media per se, but I get the impression that most people can’t handle it. I do believe that it hasn’t helped how we communicate, but has instead helped contribute to a decline, and yes, I think it would explain the real-world choices many of us presently make.
One thing I will say, going back to my first post on this thread, is that while I understand the need for general civility and being nice, all too often on these sorts of forums people confuse the concepts of positivity and civility. On other forums as on this one, I have all too often seen advice that is at best ill-informed or misguided go unchallenged because people think that being nice is not saying anything negative. And I’ve also seen a lot of people giving advice who, while filled with the best of intentions, just don’t have the knowledge or experience required to actually give that advice.
I’d actually argue the other way, that part of being civil is both confronting bad information/advice when you see it, and probably most importantly not giving information/advice that you don’t know is correct or not. It may not be shouting your head off or slinging epithets, but giving information/advice that you aren’t qualified to give is, to my mind, quite uncivil. Imagine being lost somewhere and asking for directions. If the person you’re asking doesn’t know the way, would you rather they just say “sorry mate, I’m not sure,” or would you rather they try to guess? Or, as often happens here and elsewhere, say things like “well, I don’t know how to get back to the M5, but there’s a country lane that I’ve heard good things about somewhere in that direction.” Again, I’d find that sort of thing quite uncivil.
That exchange between Loren and Sedi is actually a decent example of this. Advice was given to try a particular teacher for the whistle. Either that teacher actually teaches whistle, in which case that’s good advice, or she doesn’t, and it’s not. Sedi mistakenly thought it was not, without checking to see whether that hunch was correct. Either Loren or Sedi was right in that scenario. There’s no way to be simply positive when that kind of thing occurs, or when you see bad advice/information being given to a beginner who doesn’t know any better. You could argue that the exchange got too heated, too uncivil, etc., but to be honest, I’d rather bad information/advice be challenged than not. And I’d rather those who are not sure about something take a second to verify the information they’re about to give. After all, in this case, Heaton very clearly references her tin whistle playing in a blurb on the front page of her website.
Which again, goes back to what some of the original posts on this said. Be careful accepting advice from just anyone on the web, even if it’s given with the best of intentions. You may not get the directions you think you’re getting!
And I would never suggest otherwise. What I do suggest is that it’s all in how you do it. If the recipient takes offense to kind, if firm, guidance for no better reason than a bruised ego, that’s on them.
I agree with Sedi though, that most social media sites are not worth visiting, partly for how those businesses are run , and partly for the level of conversation.
Looking at this “argumentative” thread is good enough example of the difference . Sedi is on a roll, Loren makes a personal recommendation which Sedi is fast on, forcing Loren into the defence, but Sedi follows it up all the same, throwing a tomato at himself along the way which puts Loren into a philosophical contemplation… Stiofan steps in and sends longhaireddavid away in a most sincere manner (if he hadn’t left already) … then Madman posts that he doesn’t post anymore…which sets Narzog off with an “I feel like its not nearly as bad as people think” …uhoh… placing Nanohedron at center…Loren warming himself at the coals then considers adding oil which sends Stiofan sentimental so drawing Nanohedron into a far deeper consideration… Stiofan recentering the ball to cosmic pitch…and it’s bigsciota now taking the wing…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LfduUFF_i1A
Bisciota
"On other forums as on this one, I have all too often seen advice that is at best ill-informed or misguided go unchallenged because people think that being nice is not saying anything negative. "
… that is what Sedi was doing though, he placed Loren’s advice into doubt which Loren corrected.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rxUm-2x-2dM
David, where are you yer long haired hippie, I was looking forward to hearing a clip
Yeah.
It is true though, I started reading the thread because I had hoped to hear how someone else was getting along with their playing. For most people they have to put themselves out quite a way to share their playing. I really dislike recording for example and so any recordings I do are aimed at the how a particular flute sounds, if my actual playing is good at that point then good, if not then tough 
I find it hard to imagine commentators being purposefully unkind to another’s playing here, maybe I am being naive. What Loren says about people being over complimentary is sort of creepy , but I think anyone who posts their music has to be prepared for a mixed reaction also. Most of all, I think David was being friendly and looking to join in, and so that makes me feel sad if he doesn’t post or feels shunned, or that his presentation has been outweighed somehow.
It is a hard balance to strike at a site, because the weight of more knowledgeable members both keeps it steady as well as being something of a barrier to lighter or simpler themes…after all, all David wanted to do was to post a clip for comment and we are half way through writing a book before he even manages to.
[Ed.In … and not that I took your “Yeah” as sarcasm.or similar, I was just emphasising my view…just in case you read it like that … I forget that in some places possibilities of interpretation are different ]
The problem is that even a cursory Google to check would have confirmed that she does, indeed, play the whistle. It’s not like I think it’s some egregious error or something, I don’t know Sedi but I appreciate what they post on the forum. It’s just in this case they posted bad information, and in many ways I would consider that a breach of civility. It happens, not saying I or anyone else is innocent of ever doing this. But I can also see why Loren would be annoyed at being wrongly “corrected” like that, especially as someone who knows for sure that the information they’re trying to helpfully offer to a beginner is accurate.
It wouldn’t be tolerated; we have rules against that. Of course, critique is fine so long as it’s helpful and directional. Simply saying it could be better won’t do.
Yet it happens. Caveat emptor.
I share your regrets.
No, I’m pretty straightforward. Have to be, here; Internet and all, you know. In my not-so-humble opinion, any mod worth their salt will avoid being cute and keeping people guessing (NOT the same as being humorless), so what you see is what you get: My “Yeah” was indeed the support it would appear to be. If I had meant it snarkily (an unlikely thing, and anyway my style’s different), I would have used some kind of appropriately ironic-seeming smiley (like a wink or boggle or eek) to help the reader get that. I’ve noticed, though, that smiley literacy can be a bit hit-or-miss, so I could be misunderstood all the same; accordingly, I prefer my subtleties to be on the obvious side, if that makes any sense.
That said, I agree: When in doubt, ask.
I hope you haven’t run off so yes please do post your clip, however, be prepared for the varied responses. I’m hardly the one to give expert advice and the best that I can offer is to seek out a qualified teacher. Someone that plays the type of music you like and in the style you like to hear. With enough practice you’ll develop your own style of playing. Most importantly keep your whistling fun and enjoy it all.
As for the thread drift… I enjoy you all whether comments are good, bad, or ugly and I’m glad that I toughed it out here on C&F Forums since my born on date. I lurk here every day and may comment less frequently as yes I’m on the above mentioned social media sites that Tyler stated. But, I rely on local in person teacher(s) and C&F mostly for the feedback that I need. At present I know that playing/practicing as much as possible is what gets me to where I want to be with whistling. And my primary focus is keeping the whistling fun in every situation!!
Look over to the right, that’s me, a sixty-nine year old, penurious, tone deaf, newbie-ish, wannabee whistler with a lot more work to do. And I’m happy to be here.
And a parting glass… a simple quote from John Henry Newman: “do a little, but well.”
Be well,
Bernard
Couldn’t agree more! Sadly, constructively-critical help or even just simple information sometimes gets interpreted as put-downs by its recipients or third parties while others dish out unchallenged ‘wisdom’ by the bucket load. So some who could help become reluctant to do so while others who can’t continue on their merry way. But ask yourself one simple question before requesting or giving advice and most problems could be avoided:
If the answer to either is ‘no’, just leave it.
@ Nanohedron
I just didn’t want you to think I had thought you had said it in a sarky way, because when I reread the conversation in line that is how it looked for a moment .
That is one of the beauties and difficulties of online text conversation. For example :
@ bigsciota
If Sedi was talking at a table, and Loren says “…there is Shannon Heaton…” and Sedi says “…but she plays the flute…” and Loren says “… and the whistle!” then there is no argument at all, it would be a “normal” conversation. So in text there is a loooot of room to interpret someone’s attitude or intent… and to enter argument if so chosen. People are people and they have different expectations of others, of hierarchy or discipline, of formality or manner. As long as anyone is not being obviously unkind or persistently and unreasonably contradictory to another, then how anyone chooses to interpret anything is at least partly of their own making.
And, of course, in the OP we are seeing someone who wants to make sure their playing is okay, and I would think we might encourage that since I see so much on trad-specific forums (here, The Session) about so-and-so who’s trying to play and not doing it correctly-- which might well be because no one knowledgeable has ever listened to them and told them what needs to improve.
I guess it depends on what one uses social media for. I was never sure of the point of “friending” every stranger on Facebook or being “available to the whole world,” but when I joined, it was solely for the purpose of keeping up with old friends from high school and college who no longer lived near me. I had no interest in being “friends” with people I didn’t know in real life, and in fact didn’t even use my real name, largely so people I know or once knew who I had no interest in being “Facebook friends” with couldn’t find me (and would occasionally receive “friend requests” from people I barely knew, and just ignored them), and my profile was as unavailable to the public as I could make it. So I’m largely insulated from some of the “ills” of social media that other people encounter.
I guess I consider that if I ask for an opinion (or advice) on X or Y, it’s on me to know before asking whether I can handle the opinions (advice) presented. Being rather thin-skinned, there are some things I just won’t put out there for people, especially if they’re people I don’t know well/at all and can’t know how they’ll respond. I’m self-aware enough to know what I can and cannot handle and choose not to put myself into a situation I can’t take-- and if I do ask, I understand that I may not like what I hear. And, I know-- it’s easy to say “that’s on the person that posts asking for the opinion” but not so easy in practice when they’re in their thread later on, posting about being offended…
Slow it down.
Watch yer rhythm and phrasing.
That’ll be $75.
Yes, that pretty much is the stock advice. One size, fits all. 
But right there you have the problem, for the poster who is given that advice to improve interaction is needed. You can explain question-response structure and proper rhythms until the cows come home in writing but what is really needed is interaction, examples and actual playing. All pretty much outside the forum format.
I would usually advice to tackle very simple tunes with a clear structure to practice in order to get a solid rhtyhm going. Simple stuff like the Laccaroe for reels. It’s hard to get across that without solid rhythm you really have nothing. But then, how can you internalise the rhythms if you have only the internet to learn from. It’s a conundrum. Listen to good playing (which means leave yertube alone, go for proper stuff) and then listen some more. That’s a start anyway.
T: Laccaroe
R: reel
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
K: Edor
BEGE DEGA|BEGE d2BA|BEGE DEGA|BedB A2GA:|
Beed BAGA|(3Bcd ef gfed|Beed BAGA|(BedB A2GA|
Beed BAGA|(3Bcd ef ~g3a|bgaf gfed|egdB A2GA||
That’s a conundrum in teaching.
I feel that if somebody is paying me to teach them it’s my duty to get them to play better. That means pointing out anything that needs to be worked on.
Some people have come to me with fundamental issues that needed addressing, which I discuss with them, and they’ve responded by saying “this is exactly what I’ve been needing!”
Other people with fundamental issues have been put off. Did they think they were doing everything right? Did they only want kudos? In fact some had such deeply ingrained bad habits that the only way to fix them was to go back to the basics. When they found out that was my plan for them they stopped lessons and, I fear, never got the help they needed.
Here in the 1980s there was a guy, a good player, who only gave positivity to his students. He made his living playing and teaching and he didn’t want to discourage them or drive them away. That teacher viewed it as being in his best interest to keep people at a beginner level forever. I knew people who had been his students for several years and never improved one bit.
I’m the opposite! I want students to get better, and get to the point where they don’t need lessons, as quickly as possible. But that means being “negative” in the sense of addressing their bad habits.
So back to the topic, if somebody says “comments needed on my playing” I feel I should either 1) not say anything or 2) tell them what they could improve upon, as clearly as possible. I don’t think anybody just wanting kudos would post in that way.
Find a tune you like , one that has a few takes of it on youtube, learn the tune to your satisfaction, record your playing it, compare it to your favorite take on youtube, keep working at it, do this with a number of tunes - good luck !