Hey, it’s only November, yet. 
I’ll use tune books on new tunes, to get my fingers going more-or-less the right direction. Also as was mentioned, to clarify what is happening on fast tunes when I can’t get it straight in my head. But to get the rhythm and style, you absolutely have to listen. A lot. There is just no way to write those things down.
Not that I have the rhythm and style…yet…
Tom
That could be because you use tune books for new tunes.
Well, that could be true, Ben, but I think you keyed in on one thing and missed everything else I said. Either way, consider this: All of us are learning, but not all of us have access to living, breathing trad musicians to learn from. I pretty much am the Irish trad scene in my town. I’ve been to a handful of sessions in my life, most of them with the same group of people (anybody remember the glory days of the Rocky Mountain Boys?). The nearest of those required a five hour drive to get to
All of which means that I can either try to learn from recordings exclusively, without the benefit of asking questions, getting feedback, or even watching a master player’s fingers, or I can use whatever tools come to hand that might help me get a little more heart into my playing. That means tunebooks, tutorials, online sources (such as you tube and good old C&F), and rare contacts with trad musicians passing through town. If I had real, live musicians to draw from on a regular basis, I would probably go my whole life without picking up a book on the music. Since I don’t, I do what I can.
I suspect that many of us are in similar situations. We persevere and do the best we can because we love the music.
Not that I’m complaining in the least–I love to play, I love to learn, and the difficulty of learning this way makes those rare “a-ah” moments all the sweeter. Sure, I’ll never make All-Ireland champion learning from recordings and books, but at least I can say with good confidence that I am the most accomplished whistle player in Lander, Wyoming! 
So if you have access to the living tradition, count your blessings! But don’t be too quick to scorn the alternate methods of those of us who don’t.
Tom
But Badger, this part is what doesn’t make sense to me:
Why on earth would you think that these are the two options? You use videos, online help, tutorials, etc… but you just choose to learn a tune by listening to it rather than reading it. It’s that simple. And that hard.
Honestly, the rest of your post comes across as just making lame excuses for why you aren’t going to go to the effort of learning a tune by ear.
Do whatever you want of course, but don’t bother with the excuses. If you are happy, then just go with it. But the fact is that you are not being told to limit yourself to recorded material only, just that it will help if you learn tunes by ear first, not second.
Are we really disagreeing here? 
I was not attempting to make excuses; I was simply explaining why tune books and such are important to some of us. I do learn the vast majority of tunes by ear. It’s the best way to go with this kind of music. But I’ve also been able to learn a great deal from written notes–specifics of ornamentation, what exactly the fingers should be doing when. When learning faster tunes from recordings, there are times when it is next-to-impossible to get all the notes straight. Using written notes can save a lot of time and frustration in that case. So would asking an experienced player to play through a tune slowly a couple times so I can hear what he/she is doing.
I think we’re making the same point–listening is the most important thing. But tune books can, in fact, be a useful tool. That’s all I’m trying to say (in my rambling, sleep-deprived way).
Tom, my rather terse post may have come over as scornful. Not the way I meant it. Believe it or not, I was trying to be helpful.
Just to add one great online source - there are probably many more - which is the Comhaltas site. I would suggest going to the music part of it and listening to, and learning directly from , every single recording of tunes played in real live sessions. (I’m really hoping at this point that these recordings are in fact available around the world. I think they are.) Once you’ve got all of those under your belt (and I pretty much mean “ALL”), try learning any new tunes you may want to learn by searching for performances of them by solo, or duet artists, by doing a search on the Comhaltas site. It’s a phenomenal resource. (Although I, like others, recognise that Comhaltas, as an organisation, does have its failings.)
Again, sorry to sound “scornful”. But you can’t learn this music from books. Seriously, just try NOT using the dots to “get your fingers going in the right direction”. Even with no live trad players locally, you’ll still find that, if you stick with it, you’ll learn quicker and better in the long run.
Thanks, Ben. I will definitely check that out (I would check it right now, but the badgerling is sleeping).
I’ve been playing whistle for about 12 years, and I learned tunes exclusively by ear for all but about the past six months. Going back to printed music (especially the final chapter or two of the Ochs tutor), I am finding a-ha moments on just about every page–things I have heard in the music but never been able to get my mind/fingers around. I guess explaining that in the first place might have lent some perspective to my previous post–it is such a joy to discover these things, but such a frustration knowing that I’ve been doing it wrong all these years just playing by ear.
I am looking at myself as almost a beginner again. I have had to abandon all my old favorites, because when I play them I slip into old ways of playing. Those old ways are enough to fool the crowd here in Wyo, but my limited session experience has convinced me how very little I know about the style(s). Using printed music to augment the things I’ve been able to figure out by listening has helped me be able to reproduce what I’m hearing. It is very exciting. 
Does that make any sense? I feel like I’m not disagreeing with you, Nico, and the rest. Maybe just not stating my case very well.
Thanks for the site–can’t wait to check that out. Sounds like a dream come true.
Tom
Hmmm … still doesn;t sound the right way round to me. But, if it works for you …
Anyway, have fun with that site. You’ll like it. A lot.
You know, this little conversation has got me thinking about it, and I think what is working so well for me about the Bill Ochs book is the combination of his excellent whistle playing demonstrating the skills/tunes, combined with written notes so I can tell what exactly he’s doing. But the emphasis is on the recording. Without that, the notes would be useless.
I don’t know. It’s working for me at the moment. I think once I get some of these skills under my belt, I’ll get back to learning by ear.
And I do appreciate the opinions of those wiser and more steeped in the tradition than I (which is really setting the bar pretty low), even when I disagree.
T
What happened to your post, Mr Guru Sir? I thought it was really worthwhile …
If you really want to mess with your head (or ears, really), listen to the composer of this tune (Tommy Potts) playing it on his recording ‘The Liffey Banks.’
Arbo
Ooh! Controversy! Was he the composer? The jury’s out, I think …
… I really like his version, though, mad though it sounds …
Who do you think wrote the tune?
Arbo
I don’t think the jury’s still out on anything. I think it’s accepted wisdom that he developed the tune into at least the number of parts it has today, if not the way most people play it, which we can blame on the Bothy Band*, from an older tune, Bob and Joan or Love and Whiskey. It’s in O’Farrell’s, amongst other places, and is obviously the same first two parts.
- Listen to Tommy Potts: he plays this as a hop jig, while the Bothy Band turned it into the schmaltzy, cheesy slip jig that everyone the world over plays it as. Since the older versions are generally in 3/2 or 3/4, the hop jig feel is probably closer to the older ways of playing. And it sounds way better. Just my opinion of course
.
@Arbo: what Nico just said.
I decided it was too preachy, Ben, if well-intentioned. So I deleted it. I guess my meds finally kicked in.
Maybe I’ll change my mind again …
I love playing slip jigs as hop jigs! One-two-HOP. It can really breathe life into those tunes, and is very seldom done around here.
That’s a shame, MT. As Master Abarta put it, hop jigs just seem made for the pipes.
You can’t do it to all the slip jigs of course, but the ones that you can seem to work better as hop jigs. Boys of Ballysodare is one for instance. I actually grew to detest it and stopped playing it all together for years. But as a hop jig it’s a good tune! Of course, I still won’t play the butterfly. And I’ll only listen to Tommy Potts playing it…
If you think it was preachy … I seriously thought it was really good and to the point. I’d thought of saying “right on!” or some such … but then it was gone …
I’ll leave it up to Tom. If he’s curious to read it, I’ll put it back. Otherwise, I’ll spare him the sermon and let him enjoy his life.