Boxwood vs. Blackwood

you’d have to have to have a number of “identical” flutes from the same maker, made at roughly the same time (same mount of reamer wear), with the “identical” embouchure cuts, and the instruments would have to have come from the same climate, as exposure to differing humidity levels will affect the instruments dimensions.

So, find a maker who makes a half dozen flutes at the same time, from various woods, go to his/her shop, and conduct the test there, immediately after all flutes have been reamed to spec. I mean you can’t take them anywhere, because once the flutes leave the shop, temp and humidity will start to affect them dimensionally at differing rates, based on the wood.


Loren

But isn’t that impossible, Loren? I’ve visited several flute makers who’ve shown me how making just the slightest change to the cut of the embouchure hole, scraping off an infinitessimally small bit of wood or changing the angle ever so slightly, can change the sound of a flute entirely. It seems impossible to me to run a test like this except with two flutes that were made entirely by machines with no handwork involved at all.

I can’t right now, shall try the web, but I do understand you not believing my blue eyes.

I hope you see this comparison makes little sense. Me too can taste the the differences between salts, like I can see the differences between boxwood, pan-rosa and ebony. The point is that I can’t hear those difference when I’m blindfolded, nor can anyone else without knowing what material he/she has got in hands. No trained Chef can tell the difference between mediteranian salt and atlantic salt in an Irish stew.


Bart

It would be interesting indeed, but it would involve ‘science’, who wants that? :wink:

Bart

I’m sorry Brad, but this is simply not true, even a gun drill will produce a shiny smooth hole in boxwood, and the same result can easily be had by using a fluted reamer with a built in burnishing side, as well as proper polishing of the bore via sandpapers.

The grain of boxwood is, in fact, tighter than that of greanadilla, and as such it is far easier to produce a smooth and shiny finish, inside or out, on a boxwood instrument than it is a Blackwood instrument.


And yet there is no way to test it because nobody can make two wooden conical-bore flutes that are exactly alike in every way except for the wood.

I suppose this is debatable, from a scientific point of view, I mean what qualifies as absolutely identical - within .002"? If so, it’s absolutely is possible, it’s done routinely at some shops.



Loren

I shall never convince you, I can see this. Never the less, I know quite a few people who can tell the difference, immediately, between boxwood and Blackwood instruments played a room away, sight unseen - both professional players, and instrument makers. I’ve personally done blind testing, where another person played several Olwell flutes, made from different materials, behind my back, and I was able to identify them by sound. Sadly, my hearing was damaged somewhat doing gun drilling a couple of years ago, so I’m not certain I could tell cocus from blackwood, from Delrin blindfolded anymore, however as Cat has metioned with regards to her Murray’s, the difference is clear, and even I, constantly ringing ears and all, can tell the difference blindfolded.


Loren

I agree that very small changes to the shape and size of the embouchure hole can lead to signficant changes in how the instrument responds, and how the instrument interacts with each individuals embouchure, however I’d counter that within a narrow spectrum of adjustments, this doesn’t really affect the instruments “tonal color”, if you know what I mean. One can keep very tight tolerances, and a good maker who has cut the same size and style of embouchure hole over and over again, is quite capable of replicating previous work, certainly within that narrow spectrum that we’re talking about.


Loren

Ah well, there goes that theory! :laughing:

By the way, here are various studies on this topic:

  1. Dr. Coltman’s paper published in the Journal of the Acoustical Society of America that followed up on his concrete flute experiment (this one is more convincing):

http://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Coltman/documents/Coltman-1.06.pdf

  1. A subsequent study done in Germany with a larger sample size and includes sound spectra:

http://iwk.mdw.ac.at/Forschung/english/linortner/linortner_e.htm

I wouldn’t necessarily dismiss any of these as “junk science,” by the way!

Hi, Bart –

Yes, there are some differences, although most are fairly slight. I’ll try to answer your question as well as I can though alas, it’s going to be quite ‘unscientific’ as I have not measured (and wouldn’t know how!) to measure the bore taper, etc.

Anyway, I have studied the two flutes side by side and noticed the following (the flutes are probably at least 10 years apart in manufacture, I’d guess, the blackwood being only about four years old):

  1. At the foot end, the bore openings are pretty darned close, with the boxwood’s perhaps just a bit smaller than the blackwood’s – which means perhaps slightly thicker walls?

  2. The boxwood flute’s head/barrel combination appears just a shade shorter than the blackwood flute’s

  3. The blackwood flute appears to have just a slightly larger blowhole, but not much

  4. The flutes appear identical in length

  5. Fingerholes appear to match up in both size and placement

  6. The crown pieces are interchangeable, so I assume the head ends are roughly the same diameter

  7. HOWEVER; when I tried a “Frankenflute” experiment a while back (both flutes being stored in the same humidity container, BTW), the boxwood headjoint was rattly-loose on the blackwood body; meanwhile, the blackwood head was rattly-loose on the boxwood as well. :confused: (although I’m getting to the point where I don’t question such oddity anymore)

8 ) The blackwood Murray’s bore finish is very smooth. In fact, its exterior surfaces are the glassiest, tightest-grained blackwood I’ve personally seen, second only to cocus in my experience. The boxwood flute’s bore is, like Brad said, a little more matte, or even bamboo-like. It is very absorbent; it soaks up much more moisture than the blackwood flute.

  1. The rings appear to be made of different kinds of silver; the boxwood’s rings tarnish terribly and the blackwood’s don’t (sterling vs. nickel or plate?)

  2. One has a crown maker’s mark and the other a lion stamp :laughing:

One interesting thing I have noticed on both Murrays is that the blowhole is noticeably farther in toward the body from the endcap than on either the Hamilton or the McGee I compared them to. (The boxwood is away for restoration, so alas, I can’t compare them with the Olwell.)

Guess that’s about it from here; don’t know if I’ve answered any questions or not. But after I participated in a group (years ago, admittedly) that ran a series of blind playing tests on mass-produced Boehm flutes of sequential serial numbers – and every member of the group picked the same 1-2-3 top three out of 8 flutes total without conferring – I don’t rely much on science in this arena, except for establishing basic parameters. It seems like we’re dealing with something too fluid for science.

So ‘science’ it is!

P.S. I’m no physicist, but I’ve played Boehm flute for 35 years and have never felt a flute hum in my hands like one of these wooden ones.

P.P.S. I don’t know if it’s all bore finish, however – my bamboo F is a screamer, and that little guy’s bore is positively ridged.

Personally, I think it’s wood-molecule density and wall thickness. Along with all those other things, of course. :wink:

And let’s never forget to take into account the true nature of handmade flutes: the maker. If it was me, I would probably be tinkering and tweaking all the time!

What Loren said.

About scientific studies–these are studies done by scientists
using scientific method and published in reputable places
like peer reviewed scientific journals. Such studies are
often mistaken–there is a flaw in the experimental design,
it turns out, so that some factor was discounted that
was affecting the outcome–or some of the conclusions drawn aren’t
warranted by the findings. Often the results aren’t reproducible,
which is why one doesn’t proceed confidentally on the
basis of a single study. Consequently when somebody says
‘A scientific study shows…’ a healthy skepticism is in order,
as well as ‘scientific studies show…’ One really does
need to look at the study or the studies.

This isn’t to pooh-pooh or dismiss science. It is simply to
acknowledge the fact that science is difficult and fallible,
and sincere
efforts even by careful and intelligent people can and
sometimes do go wrong. I think this skepticism is especially in order
when we are dealing with matters that involve a subjective
component, e.g. how instruments sound, whether
various materials have discernible tonal differences.

This isn’t a battle between subjectivists and scientists, therefore.
I consider myself a sort of scientist and my antenna do pop up
when somebody writes: ‘Scientific studies show…’ People who
think this is anti-science perhaps don’t understand science.

As I see it, the situation is like this:

Many of us believe that different materials, at least some of them,
affect the sound of wind instruments–all other things being equal.
They tend to have a characteristic sound. As I experience
this pretty consistently, it seems to me, and plenty of others
do too, including a number of highly respected flute and
whistle makers,
it’s not unreasonable to suppose there is something to
this.

The difficulty is that we cannot give, to my knowledge,
a plausible account of HOW the material makes the tonal
difference. The leading theories, e.g. the material makes
a difference to the bore smoothness, don’t work very well,
as we’ve just seen in the case of boxwood.

I’m convinced material is implicated in some other way,
even that it might somehow vibrate–though I appreciate
why this is considered pretty much a long shot.

So there is a sufficiently widespread subjective impression from
a good number of experienced people
that materials tend to make a characteristic difference to sound, to make it plausible that they do. But no account
so far as to how.

Then somebody says ‘A scientific experiment shows otherwise’
and those who are skeptical are sometimes dismissed
as anti-scientific romantics, unfairly I think.

It’s a puzzling situation. But in it i tend to trust my own impressions
about the matter
and the impressions of those I respect, e.g. Mike Copeland says on his site that
nickle is louder and brighter, brass is warmer–my experience
too.

Material often colours sound, I believe, but I don’t know how.

Jim, nice comprehensive story you wrote and in a way I see your point as I do see Loren’s one.

But isn’t it somewhat strange that we don’t ‘trust’ science because of the mistakes they might make (and do make), yet it’s fair enough that we ‘believe’ or are ‘convinced’ that all kinds of woods/metals have their own acoustic quality.

“I know what my ears, and those of countless other professional flute, recorder, and whistle makers will tell you - the materials do make a difference, to some degree or another, in an instruments sound.”

That was Loren’s quote, it beats the mistakes made by ‘scientists’ in haze.

Personally, I prefer wooden flutes to delrin ones. Not for their sound, but for their material. Like I have sterling silver rings on my ebony cornemuse. I polish and cherish them, but I don’t think they do their jobs better than the steel ones on my M&E. Actually, a plastic flute can do without them.

To make it more simple, my book-marker is an old postcard, my wife has one made for her personally in sterling silver with her name on it.
Both do a great job.

But wife’s one is much prettier.

Bart

Mmm, I see your point, but I believe there’s a huge difference between aesthetics and function. And while the kind of wood a flute’s made out of falls into both categories, the kind of metal its rings are? – well, that’s more about aesthetics.

To me, anyway.

I play a lot of flutes.

The real question is whether an “apples to apples” comparison is ever possible due to the microscopic variations between one hand-cut embouchure and the next (I realize several have already made this point, but it is the duty of great science to repeat/steal good points made by others).

All that aside, when I play a Delrin McGee flute and then play a Blackwood one of the same model and embouchure cut I hear a subtle difference. My wife standing 4 feet away typically does not.

When I play a mopane or blackwood Burns my wife notices no difference (and I don’t know that I do) when I pick up a boxwood Burns version she swoons. I hear a marked difference.

I hear a subtle difference between a boxwood and blackwood Olwell. Interesting to me that the difference seems more pronounced in the Burns boxwood flutes. Likely due to the lined Olwell heads.

I am, in fact, a published scientist ("Sorting of Y-bearing Bovine Spermatozoa Using Monoclonal H-Y Antibodies and Flow Cytometry. International Conference on Animal Reproduction, The Hague, The Netherlands. 1992)

So, obviously, everything I’ve said is true and scientific.

If anyone has any more scientific questions don’t heitate to ask. I’m always happy to use my considerable scientific prowess to help my friends.

Glad I could clear this up for everyone. :sunglasses:

Doc

About these–the flutes in Coltman’s paper all had a delrin headjoint,
if I understand the study. I suppose this is to insure uniformity
of headjoints, but one wonders how much this influences the
outcome. Coltman is careful only to draw conclusions about
the effect of tubes on flutes with delrin headjoints.
In the second study, maybe I’ve missed
it (I’m sleepy) but nothing seems to be said about the listeners, who
they were, what experience they had with instruments, if any.

About the ‘Prove it!’ demand–as in ‘Prove the materials
make a difference, not slight differences in the embouchure
cut, etc’, perhaps one can’t prove it. But it’s reasonable to
believe lots of things we can’t prove. For instance, it’s
reasonable to believe that all men are mortal, but I can’t
prove it–how can I prove that nobody who lives in a
thousand years or ten thousand years or…won’t live
forever?

The argument is simply that lots of experienced people
say they perceive a tonal difference associated with
different materials, it’s marked, they say, and they
report the same tonal differences–virtually nobody
says that boxwood is loud and bright while blackwood
is sweet and creamy (forgive me, Gary). Here are two
alternative explanations–by a vast coincidence the
construction of the flute in each case produces the same tonal
differences, the material has nothing to do
with it; so boxwood sounds like boxwood because
all those flutes have other physical differences, unrelated to
the material, that produces a similar sound. That’s pretty
unlikely. Second, everybody involved is brain washed
or indoctrinated so that, while the flutes sound the same,
they hear them differently, etc. That’s pretty implausible
too–mass illusion due to indoctrination.

I take the conclusion ‘material is affecting sound’ to be
reasonable because it’s how things seem to lots of people,
who agree in their impressions, and because the alternative
explanations seem less likely than the conclusion.

The difficulty is that nobody can explain how the material
does it and, on the face of things, it appears to conflict
with what we believe about how flutes actually produce a sound. Here one has
to make a judgement. Mine, FWIW, is that the science here
is at its beginning, there hasn’t been a great deal of study,
a fair amount of it seems questionable,
there may well be factors we haven’t tested. Perhaps
more study will explain the situation.

Those who disagree–not unreasonable either, obviously–
must find a better explanation of the situation, e.g. mass
illusion or…

I don’t care what its made of.

I want one of those “swooning” flutes.

I quicker the better I dare say. :smiley:


Interesting thread BTW.

Yeah but you gotta be careful with 'em or you’ll end up with thirteen kids. :wink:

Doc

i enjoy your posts but on this i would say…

your bookmark is fixed in it’s ‘function’, so it matters less ‘what’ marks the page just so long as it is marked; whereas tone is variable and so it matters more how or why it varies.
so i would say that was not a good analogy you chose.

question:

if you stood in 3 rooms, each of the exact same dimensions, one made of wood, one of stone and one of metal, would three different sound properties exist within each room?

Standing on your head, lying down, standing or sitting? Wearing a wool shirt or cotton or poly?
And what color are the walls?
Come on rama lama. Be a little more scientific here…
Some people certainly have too much time on their hands.