i like the Bore doctors oil but he is such a rip off and never gives enough in the bottles–the 7.00 one is Only 21 ML and he says its good for 2 years --maybe for a whistle, one would need at least 60 ml to do a good Old/new break in, and then 2 years of regular seasoning— the next goes to 120 ML , thats great but its 38.00---------i have had two threads on hear and it appears no one really has much to say—there is no common denominator for oil and the one that comes close is Almond–and I love it and have used in on alot of wood projects i have made, I make my own wax and polish, in my experience Almond if taken care of can last for a couple years if not more with no sign of smell or rancidity -------commercial oils vary and ONE really does not know what is in them--------so the search and question show continues
as far as Roché-Thomas, I have some of that too and i cant smell anything–question is, is it still a good choice— maybe it was the KEY oil/valve oils you were smelling that stunk, it was a band room
For what it’s worth, I, as well as several others on this board, prefer jojoba. It does not readily oxidize. It leaves little or no residue. It is pleasant to work with. It is similar in chemical makeup to sperm whale oil, a favorite fine oil of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. It is economical. I use it on a blackwood flute.
Blackwood is an oily/waxy wood. Oiling it serves to restore some of its natural oily nature that may leach out through condensation moisture or deliquiesce over time. The oil serves to slow down the uptake and release of moisture from the wood, as does a humidifier if your atmospheric humidity varies through extremes. I object to linseed and almond oil because of their residue.
Clearly, YMMV
Bob
well my friend in my experience with oils jojoba is too thick, and sticky and the indians themselves used it as a “bandaid” and its healing properties--------but maybe a mixture of that and Almond would be something of a thought—the Vitamin E i use is a very thick solution 28,000 IU—and it mixes in very well-------as far as spermaceti i would imagine that could be used it was used as a base oil for perfume --------but being it is from an animal i would imagine its breaks down too----anything in it pure form can break down-----------I have heard FRESH linseed oil is good, but has self igniting qualities if left in the open and left unattended-----------boiled Linseed oil ---------that has a MSDS rating-- ----i would not even go near that
Cavefish I am really curious as to where you acquired this “jojoba” oil which is “thick and sticky”.This simply does not square with the jojoba oil I use. A short trip through wikipedia might familiarize you with its chemical composition. It is very light. Composed primarily of esterified waxes, liquid at temperatures above 10 C. and cetyl-alcohols. These resist oxidation. The makeup of the refined oil is specifically a recommmendation of its use in preference to sperm whale oil, which is now proscribed as a CITES substance. Jojoba, like its predecessor sperm whale oil, is recommended for used in fine machinery, eg. watchworks. You would never catch a watchmaker using almond or any other such oxidizing goo in their watchworks.
I am at a total loss as to where you found it’s useage as a ‘bandaid’ or kluge. I would be greatful for any direction to a citation for this ‘information’.
My preference for a flute bore oil is one that is extremely light, non-oxidizing, and one that fails to leave a residue. Jojoba oil fills this bill. The very fact that people must use an antioxidant such as vitamin E in conjunction with almond oil should tip you off to its tendency to oxidization, which is also also indicated by the fact that almond oil contains saturated fats. Sperm wale oil in the past, and now jojoba oil, are used in many lubricants because of its stability , low viscosity, penetrating qualities and resistance to oxidation.
Bob
well jojoba has alcohol in it and that is where some the the healing qualities come from ------this minute traces of alchohol could speed the drying process- not good for wood but it does have some fungicidal values----------almond is more of an emollient a natural wood conditioner ---------------i from california we use alot for cuts --jojoba is all over------- there is plants everywhere
but I will defiantly give it a try ----------it does have a good shelf life, do you really think it lets wood breath, it is a liquid wax
Medicinal Applications for Jojoba
Jojoba is becoming a popular carrier for medications that need to penetrate through the skin in order to work correctly. It is also important in the application of band aids, helping the band aids to not stick to healing skin. Jojoba also helps to reduce the appearance of scars. It can be used to treat skin conditions such as psoriasis, acne, cold sores, rashes, chafing, dermatitis, eczema and rough skin. This is because it has strong antibacterial and antifungal properties. It is also great for treating bruises.
the Natives have used this for hundreds of years, Bro
quote: “It is not really an “alcohol”, such as rubbing alcohol, which would dry the skin, but it is
an emulsifying wax, . . .”
I have, what for me, is a sizable investment in this flute. I acquired it second hand, and so have no warrantee. I would be extremely reluctant to use anything I would fear might injure it. I also have some knowledge of organic chemistry. These factors have led me to investigate, and subsequently test, using jojoba oil as a bore oil. I now feel confident in using it. My experience with blackwood extends to playing clarinets and oboes as well as this flute. Oboes in particular, are a very ‘wet’ instrument. I have searched the archives at the Forest Products Division of the US Forestry Service searching for the makeup of the oils and waxes naturally occurring in Blackwood with no success as yet. In any case, the jojoba oil appears to be compatible with them and is well tolerated. No oil, or esterified wax will make a wood ‘waterproof’, but they do reduces the effects of moisture on the wood structure. Its been said the first defense for your flute is the presence of oil to cause the moisture to bead and not readily soak in. This allows you to mop it out periodically. The next issue is whether the oil leaves residue and somehow ‘clogs the pores of the wood’. I find jojoba oil to readily meet these tests easily.
Jojoba’s antifungal qualities are a bonus. But not a guarantee. I know of at least one fungus that will readily attack Rosewoods, which are otherwise rot resistant. Go figure.
My thought would be for someone interested, but reluctant to risk their precious instrument, to get scraps of Blackwood and experiment on them.
Bob
i dont know what kind of a fool proof test i could do—testing wood on the outside , testing on the BORE— i would have to look into it-- the waxy substance is still wax/resin ----- a protective wax and a waterproofing feature that some woods have - such as verawood, or lingum vitea------- black wood is in the rosewood family i believe some call it grenadilla and does carry a waxy structure–but mild --as it is a dense wood----- now the Bore doctor carries a grenada oil— that might be something to look at------------ but he is such a rip off
i wish more on here would voice out -----------theres more joking on here then serious buisness
FWIW my objection to linseed, in any of its forms, may in fact be the characteristics which recommend it to others. It is a ‘drying oil’. It consists of a high portion of saturated fats which will oxidize and leave residues. This polymerization when exposed to air is what makes it a great base for paints and various finishes. But it is exactly this deposition of a residue, even a slight one, to which I object. The polymers and resins left behind when the linseed ‘dries’ may eventually contribute to a clogging of the wood pores. I must, at this point refer to Mark Twain’s famous remark to the effect that what constitutes a horse race is a difference of opinion.
Without resorting to marine finishes and various epoxies, or filling the bore with cast ABS, i don’t think we can ‘waterproof’ our instruments. But we can seek to lessen the wood’s uptake and release of moisture, and to slow this process. It is my a.) considered opinion, and b.) fervent hope, that by slowing this process down, and more or less stabilizing the moisture content of the wood, we can avoid disaster. . . .
Again, YMMV
Bob
thanks for responding, i appreciate your sincerity, . though it doesn’t appear to be a very convincing argument to me. so i say bunk to you jojoba elitists! long live raw linseed oil (with it’s unique superior hydrophobic bore stabilization acoustic enhancement properties. graphs forthcoming).
Rama, I think it can be safely said that one of your favorite jigs might be “Off She Goes”, unless of course, there is a stirring ITM version of “Post Time”
Leaving aside my earlier (semi-) jocular comments, yes, it is exactly the drying properties of raw linseed oil that I understood (from others undoubtedly far more expert than me) to be one of it’s chief advantages. In the case of the so-called “boiled” this is far to extreme, and will lead to actual clogging deposits.
But it is exactly this deposition of a residue, even a slight one, to which I object. The polymers and resins left behind when the linseed ‘dries’ may eventually contribute to a clogging of the wood pores.
And again, that is exactly what I was led to believe it is for. You say “clogging”, others say “sealing” - it slows the passage of moisture. It’s not as if the wood needs the “pores” for anything, is it? If the oil has no sealing effect at all, then why bother?
It’s not as if the wood needs the “pores” for anything, is it? If the oil has no sealing effect at all, then why bother?
You bring up two interesting points. I’ll speculate about your second point first. If I were trying to ‘seal’ the wood I would look for a much more effective sealant than any of the resins and polymers left behind by the linseed oil. Simple experience tells us that moisture migrates right through this ‘sealing’. What I am looking for is something to repel the bulk of the moisture and cause it to bead up until I can take a moment and mop it out. Almost any oil fills this bill. And I would include linseed in this category, when it is fresh. The shiny residue left after it ‘dries’, the polymers and resins, maybe not so much. Again, what I am seeking is not the impossibility of ‘waterproofing’ my instrument, but slowing its absorption and release of moisture.
The rapid changes in moisture content in wood is what I believe is damaging. A flute unplayed for an extended period of time should be very gently humidified and ‘played in’ in short playing periods over several weeks. Once it reaches it’s optimal moisture content for best performance, the trick then is keeping it in this range by regular playing and protecting it from rapid and wide swings in the ambient humidity. That’s my two cents worth.
As to the ‘pores’, I can speculate. Terry McGee has postulated that flute makers have steadily migrated toward materials that provide a ‘rigid container’ for the resonating column of air. (Apologies to Terry if I mangled his thought.) If I understood him correctly, this is the reason why Blackwood, among others, is a preferred tone wood. It also explains why Doug Tipple is able to produce such resonant flutes: the rigidity of the PVC. But then we are left with several anomalies. One of course would be bamboo flutes, which have a very porous nature under the hard outer surface which may contribute to their resonance. The other comes from my own personal experience: A lot of years ago I made some simple, straight bore flutes from Koa Wood. Now Koa is prized by Luthiers, but you wouldn’t think would make good flutes; it’s soft and porous, with extensive ‘tubules’, and yet these flute were astonishingly resonant, unsealed and with marginally smooth walled bores. Go figure. I can’t but feel that ‘clogging’ the pores of the Koa would be detrimental.
Bob
the whole reason is it needs to Breath - it is subjected to extremes, it is not a piece of furniture that stay s acclimated to it environment , or completely sealed ----------- these extremes need to be tended to by slowing down the extremes---------IE slowing down the wetting and drying process------ the oil is the medium point---------------but it must be a oil that is not a complete barrier— it must be an oil that when mixd with water (breath) it semi dilutes but not completely , than on the flip side- it must be a oil that does not Dry to fast------- so when the water evaporates the ONLY takes with it a little oil and leaves some behind----------it reality, the wood NEVER completely gets saturated not does it get completely dry, IT STAYS acclimated to itself---------- no extremes are met, how one tests this oil is it must be natural, from a plant. or possibly and animal and must wash off hands easy---------that will tell you if iT is semi water based as MOST plant oils are
SO the perfect oil is one that breathes , evaporates semi slow , semi mixes with water, -----thats the perfect oil--------- and almond,walnut, olive maybe jojoba etc, fits this bill-----------------i used Almond on furniture and wood jewelry i make- and it works FINE under water conditions but , to extend its water life I add melted Beeswax------------- but without the Beeswax it would last a few day of extreme water situations (submerged) --------------- which a flute does not go through------------
Sorry but some of these explanations sound more like thought-experiments rather than fact. Many people folks convince themselves that these TEs are indeed fact by virtue of their plausibility – which is why quackery and UFO sightings are both alive and well–but I digress.
I like almond oil. It seems to repel bore moisture. It can even make my flute look newish. It seems to be the stuff most people use. I’ve been lightly oiling for years but I have no idea if this will really save my flutes in the end or even if it does anything but leave my skin temporarily soft and supple, sexy even. I could use a neck rub about now. Honey…
HAVE DONE many experiments as far as my presentations go--------------i could also , if i wanted to waste money get all types of commercial and essential oils and subject them to LEL-lower explosive limit, HEL Higher explosive limit- just to test stability---------i am sure most of the essential would be fine- but most commercial we named have petroleum hydrocarbons in them---- --wood needs to be FOOLEd into thinking it is alive-------not that leaves would branch forth-------------which did happen on many tests— not at the flute level though----------- trees dont need a root system to survive awhile , so the flutes can remain stable is treated correctly--------- and that the RUB right , instability is why it cracks
I leave my flute in a rain barrel outside the back door when I’m not playing it. Sometimes, if it seems too wet (which can happen) I just coat it lightly with manuka honey. I fool the flute into thinking it’s a flute and then it works just fine. Try it if you don’t believe me. Forget about oil.
i am unable to fool my flutes. i really think they are dead.
so i store my flutes at 50-60% humidity during dry months, that keeps them stable.
i oil the bore once a year to repel the moisture that can accumulate while playing the instrument.
--------but being it is from an animal i would imagine its breaks down too----anything in it pure form can break down-----------I have heard FRESH linseed oil is good, but has self igniting qualities if left in the open and left unattended-----------boiled Linseed oil ---------that has a MSDS rating-- 
----i would not even go near that
You are bringing out my pedant. . . 
