B flat chanter revisited

Uilleann Pipes
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“I, as a newbie, am sorry that I chose an Angus chanter. I and my friends were unable to get it in tune. I thought it was the makers fault” Don

:laughing: OK, here’s a personal evaluation then:

I, as a newbie, am sorry that my friend chose an Angus Bb set. I and my friends, and a very experienced uilleann piper who is also very good at making reeds, were unable to get it in tune. I thought it was the makers fault.

"When reeded correctly they are simply in tune. It has been my experience that Mr. Angus is especially generous with extra reeds when delivering a set so that the player can fool around with adjustments for climate etc. without worrying about ruining their only reed. " Don

Good for you then.

Yes, the Bb set sent to Denmark came with at least 20 reeds!!!. Very generous indeed. The set looked very nice indeed. It arrived in the summer and the weather was not dry or cold. Trying various reeds at the Tönder folk festival, one of Ireland’s finest pipers could not get the set to play in tune with itself. Also interesting was the fact that when we put the chanter reed that was working best in the Angus chanter, albeit out of tune, into a Williams Bb chanter, the Williams Bb played very well and in tune with itself.

At the time I made discreet enquiries on the serious piping forum, where it is allowed to both praise, and discuss the faults of uilleann pipemakers like adults, without 1950’s style Sovjet/Bush censorship. It transpired that another experienced piper in the US & A had had considerable difficulty trying to assist the owners of 4 Angus Bb sets in getting their pipes to play in tune with themselves. Prehaps there was just a one-off batch of Angus Bb’s made at some point that were simply hard to reed for some reason?

Otherwise from what I’ve heard folks are well pleased with Brad’s instruments, and he’s said to be a nice guy only too glad to help out. The then owner of the Danish set attested to this, that Brad sent reeds and was anxious to get the set going.

An experienced English pipemaker reeded the chanter in 2006, and it was playing in tune with itself. This was the basis for my remark regarding newbies to be “wary”. It seems that this chanter and the 4 Bb’s in the US are not that easy to reed and get in tune with themselves. This would also seem to be the root of the problem, the reeding. As Don stated “When reeded correctly they are simply in tune”. I have no argument with that, but some chanters, drones and regs are easier than others to reed and get in tune hence my statement “newbies be wary…”.

The set is, I believe, in Scotland now, and hopefully making a “hive of honeyed sounds”. Most uilleann pipemakers are human, and it is human to err sometimes. I know even Dave Williams has made at least one chanter back in the 1980’s that was not up to his usual high standard. As Peter L. remarked there are no absolutes in the world of uilleann piping.

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Unfortunately, what passes here for “adult” discussion is actually more like a juvenile piss and moan session.

Give me a frickin’ break, dude. :really:

The set is in Scotland now, and it is playing in tune and happily so… as it’s owner has informed me.

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"Unfortunately, what passes here for “adult” discussion is actually more like a juvenile piss and moan session. " J.


“Yeah, I know” just quoting “Little Britain’s” Andy :laughing:


“The set is in Scotland now, and it is playing in tune and happily so… as it’s owner has informed me.” J

Good :party:

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[quote=“Steampacket”] At the time I made discreet enquiries on the serious piping forum, where it is allowed to both praise, and discuss the faults of uilleann pipemakers like adults, without 1950’s style Sovjet/Bush censorship. [quote]

Dude, what Soviet-style censorship? What you wrote back then never even made it to press to be censored. If the writers’ union disagreed with you, and if the authorities found it to be politically incorrect, the KGB just picked you up in a chaika, took you to the basement of the Lyubyanka (if you were lucky) and inserted 9 grams of lead in your skull. (If you were unlucky, you were sent beyond the Kolyma to work in the mines…)

Bad analogy. But, of course, if it weren’t for the United States of America, you would have known that already… from first-hand experience. :slight_smile:

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But, of course, if it weren’t for the United States of America, you would have known that already… from first-hand experience. smile

That sort of statements spread a terrible stench.

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I guess I should go read up on my history again… everyone knows that the Soviet Union was just a swell place to enjoy freedom and, gosh knows, they never had an interest in expanding their borders beyond their original limits.

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OK… enough of the Angus Bb incident.

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“Dude, what Soviet-style censorship? What you wrote back then never even made it to press to be censored. …” K.K.

Lighten up dude, everything’s relative - I’ll agree that thread-locking a civilised discourse is not quite as drastic as a bullet in the head or a spell in the Kolyma region, but is is mildly irritating nonetheless in this day and age

"Bad analogy. But, of course, if it weren’t for the United States of America, you would have known that already… from first-hand experience. " K.K.

God bless the America :slight_smile: We are so grateful :slight_smile:

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I’m sorry I got so upset. God bless Sweden and long live His Majesty King Carl XVI Gustaf!!!

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“I’m sorry I got so upset. God bless Sweden and long live His Majesty King Carl XVI Gustaf!!!” K.K.K.

Steady on old chap you’re veering off topic. I think you could also be overdoing it a bit. I’m not even Swedish, but alright then, why not … Everybody altogether now!! Long live President Bush and his war of terror

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Anyway, back to pipes …

… I’ve always liked the idea of a Bb set. Don’t know why. However, how practical are they … :laughing: … OK wrong question.

Are there more disadvantages to Bb as opposed to Bnat? I imagine for some, the length of the chanter and the stretch would be an obstacle, but it occurs to me that a Bb set would be more compatible than B as far as playing with other instruments is concerned (for instance, less sharps and flats in the major scale). It would be less of a pain for a harpist to retune to play along in Bb.

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An experienced English pipemaker reeded the chanter in 2006, and it was playing in tune with itself.

Then the chanter is in tune with itself. I think it must be one or the other. Perhaps it is Schrödinger’s chanter?

and it is human to err sometimes

Fine. Except that I feel you have misrepresented the error as an error in chanter design/execution rather than a mis-reeding, which may or may not have anything to do with Mr. Angus at all.

On a related matter, what about great pipemakers who use rushes? Or all of those little bits of paper, bell paperclips, blue tack, tape, etc. in everyones pipes. All out of tune? I am curious about the opinion of the reed makers in the group. Do you find that the chanters are in tune but the “extras” are added to compensate for bad reeds or reed adjustment ( ie can you “fix” them with a really good reed) or are the tuning defects that require these prosthetics “in the wood”?

Serious question by the way. not meant to slag anyone.

-Don

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Or all of those little bits of paper, bell paperclips, blue tack, tape, etc. in everyones pipes.

What do mean, ‘everyone’s’ ?

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“Are there more disadvantages to Bb as opposed to Bnat? I imagine for some, the length of the chanter and the stretch would be an obstacle” PJ

Well I have a C and a Bb chanter and small hands, but I don’t find it a problem going between the two chanters as regards the stretch and covering the holes. I do find after playing the D chanter for a while and then changing over to the C that I have to concentrate at first on how I place my bottom hand fingers in order to cover the tone holes properly in order to get a good sounding note. Just for a short period, then the fingers remember where the holes are and it’s just to play as usual

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As for playing with other instruments - not sure Bflat or even C makes that much sense if you’re thinking in terms of “common keys”. Unless you’re Liam O’Flynn and want to play with an orchestra, that is…

The most effective use of ensemble flat pipes IMO involves other instruments ‘tuning down’ to the pipes, use of capos etc., B or Bflat flutes, etc. Otherwise the tonal quality and sound of the flat pipes will just get drowned in the sound of other instruments which are playing at “normal” volume and tone.

Also, most ‘flat pitch’ instruments play best somewhat flat of their ‘nominal’ pitches (at least, the ones closely based on historic examples usually do - they were not designed to modern A=440 pitch, which did not exist at the time). So a Bflat set is not likely to be happiest in exact modern Bflat, meaning that other instruments need to tune to the pipes anyhow.

OK, that leaves fixed-pitch instruments out - but what fixed pitch instruments do you fancy playing with the pipes, anyhow? Piano?!? Accordion? Ugh. Concertina? Well, for concertina your best bet is a lovely flat-tuned concertina, those have a mellow tone that would actually work with pipes. (Peter’s C pipes sound good with Kitty Hayes’ concertina because they do play pretty near modern C, and Kitty plays concertina “on the row” which means she’s usually playing in C and F more often than players using the more common modern concertina style).

Bill

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I’m not sure I can entirely agree with that, Bill. With a Bb set you can happily play along with your favourite GHB marching band as they perform fifty of your favourite polkas and national anthems.

UPs of any key are solo instruments first. If you want to play with an ensemble more than you want to be a piper, why not get a guitar? I have seen fiddlers tune down to B, so I suppose Bb is not impossible. I was unable to find a B flute anywhere, so had to have one made special. I’m not sure what other instruments you might have in mind to play along with, but certainly a flat set sounds best by itself IMHO.

djm

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“Then the chanter is in tune with itself. I think it must be one or the other. Perhaps it is Schrödinger’s chanter?” Don

C. was able to make a reed that enabled the chanter to play/be in tune with itself. Yet none of the many reeds sent by Angus could manage this feat. Strange don’t you think? Prehaps the chanter belonged to Schrödinger’s left-pawed cat



"Fine. Except that I feel you have misrepresented the error as an error in chanter design/execution rather than a mis-reeding, which may or may not have anything to do with Mr. Angus at all. " Don.

Well, I remember that the very experienced Irish piper noticed that the bottom hand holes of the Angus chanter where not in the same position as the bottom holes of the Williams Bb chanter. The spacing was different. He found this odd. I don’t remember what design the Angus Bb was based on though. The Williams Bb chanter is based on an Egan chanter that Dave measured back in 1982. So I’m inclined to think that the spacing of the holes in the Angus chanter could have something to do with the tuning difficulties, but maybe not. We had no way of measuring or comparing the throat measurements or bores of the two chanters at the time.

However the very experienced pipemaker in England was able to make a reed that got the Angus Bb playing in tune. I don’t know if he did anything else to the chanter, or used any kind of prosthetics at all.

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Hi Steampacket

I suppose I had better chip in, as the current owner of the set in question.

It was bought as a set for me, as a beginning piper to grow into. I had the money available for the set and took the chance when I had it.

The set was checked out when I brought it back to Scotland, by Uilliam, my teacher and Jim Daily the local pipemaker. In both cases they put the set together, tuned the drones and played the set and it played in tune. The reeds did not need to be touched (have never been touched since I got the set - never needed to). The only issue that there is with the set is that the bag is leaking air, Ulliam is going to see to that, this cannot be laid at Brad’s door as this was a replacement for the original bag.

PJ - Bb and B both sound nice (better than D for sure :laughing: ) if you have the chance of a Bb chanter, take it - the stretch is not that bad.

David

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"The set was checked out when I brought it back to Scotland, by Uilliam, my teacher and Jim Daily the local pipemaker. In both cases they put the set together, tuned the drones and played the set and it played in tune. The reeds did not need to be touched (have never been touched since I got the set - never needed to). " Big Davey.

That’s good news. I’m really glad to hear that the set is going well and that you’re happy with it. All the best

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Mick and Caoimhin play in Bflat all the time. Some fiddles are happy tuned down that far, others aren’t.

B flutes and Bflat flutes are out there, including some antiques. Many modern makers do make them on request. I reckon they don’t hit the used market all that often - like pipes, wooden flutes are mostly “made special” i.e. to order these days.