Musing about my experience with Susato whistles and seeing that it is a sort of universally accepted principle in the whistle community that metal whistles deliver a peculiar sound, a rougher, brashier, rawer kind of sound than whistles made of other–perhaps softer or more sound-absorbing-- materials, I came to the not very original conclusion or “whistle axiom”, which says that a whistle’s soul is made out of metal, and its corollary, which states that if we take the metal out of the whistle we’re taking out its whistledom, we’re killing the whistle and changing it into a different instrument, which though tamer is no longer a whistle.
In other words, only metal whistles are whistles.
Other fellow whistlers such as Jens Hoppe argue that wall thickness is the determining factor and not the material employed. He claims that Dixon whistles, because they are thinner-walled, sound the same as real whistles.
I’d like to hear more opinions on this trivial but important matter. Are non metal whistles different sub-species of whistles? Do professional whistle players almost always favor metal whistles? Do so mainly those who play traditional whistle music? Is it the material or the thickness of the wall? Etc., etc.,.
Cheers!
As a new maker of wooden whistles, I certainly hope that non-metal materials can be made into “true” whistles!!
Every instrument’s material definitely affects it’s sound and playing characteristics, as does it’s dimensions, manufacturing technique, etc. To say that one is a whistle, and another is not simply because it is not made of metal does not make any sense. For me, any end blown, 6 holed fipple flute is a whistle. Pretty general definition, but I like it.
Plenty of often recorded pros play Weasels, Burkes, Abells, Riordans, and still call themselves whistle players. On the other hand, a metal whistle like a Copeland is a FAR cry from a Generation or Oak. All definitely whistles…
If we’re going to put things in boxes, let’s at least put them in the right box. Metal whistles as we know them today are actually a relatively new creation. There is a vast world of whistling beyond the gates for those that care to venture out to find it. And this world started and continues to use its traditional and thousand year old history of wooden whistles (and metal as well). You might as well say that only metal flutes are truly flutes.
Why not simply say, “I prefer the sound of a metal whistle.” That seems reasonable to me. But to say that a wooden whistle is not a whistle simply because you don’t like the way they sound…
There once was a king that despised green apples; to his taste they were too sour.
Now, the neighboring kingdom, who our king hated fiercely, exported round plump juicy grapes. They were known around the world for their fine grapes. Of course our king did not like them at all. In fact, he was so adamant in is displeasure, both of the prosperity of the neighboring kingdom and green apples, that he issued a royal decree stating that “Henceforth all green apples shall be referred to as grapes!”
Time passed and after several generations the two kingdoms met to discuss terms of peace. Each kingdom brought an offering of peace. The first had a basket of large juicy grapes and offered it to our kingdom’s delegation. After tasting them they proclaimed, “These are wonderful grapes!”
So, our delegation presented their offering of very large, not quite round, grapes (which were, of course, green apples). The other delegation passed the basket around and as they took a bite they proclaimed, “Wow! These are some sour grapes.”
That’d be my thinking on the matter.
Erik
[ This Message was edited by: ErikT on 2001-12-16 11:36 ]
On 2001-12-16 05:25, Parker wrote:
metal whistles deliver a peculiar sound, a rougher, brashier, rawer kind of sound than whistles made of other–perhaps softer or more sound-absorbing-- materials,
Metal Whistles??? You mean a Copeland or Overton metal whistle? How about the plastic head, metal body whistles like a Generation, which camp are they in? Since the head is mostly responsible for the timbre of a whistle, I guess they are a plastic whistle.
Seriously, it’s the design that mostly matters, the material is secondary.
Why do you think it’s almost universallly accepted that metal whistles have a peculiar, rawer, rougher sound? That’s new to me. Cheap mass produced whistles with injection molded heads have a rougher sound than a good hand made whistle. All metal Copelands & Overtons (& others) have a very refined, though very different sound from each other.
I prefer to think of the instrument as a TIN whistle as I have said so here before, plastic head included. I would not like to go to a point where you’d class a particular make as not a REAL whistle.
I particularly dislike the sound of the susatos and the high end wooden ones, but that is in the context where I would encounter whistles, where their particular sound feels distinctly out of place (but then, I have heard Marion McCarthy do a surprisingly lovely job on a susato). This doesn’t necessarily mean they are not good instruments that have other uses. What’s real after all, there is a natural selection process. In twenty years time we’ll see (if we survive that long) which will be still in use.
A whistle is a whistle.
Whistles have been made out of bone, wood, and other materials LONG before they were made out of metal.
Case in point: a few years ago, I read an article in Discover magazine about a bone fragment with holes drilled into it in the pattern of a typical whistle that was THOUSANDS of years old.
yawn
Well if you want to be really picky, only whistles made out of tin are “real” tin whistles, but that’s just getting sort of silly about it isn’t it? That’s one of the reasons I just call 'em “whistles” not tinwhistle or pennywhistle, just plain ole whistle, cause there’s so many different kinds of them.
Which is better? I dunno. I like my metal whistles better than my friend’s susato, but that’s just personal taste.
After reading what clearly much better informed whistlers have to say on this matter, I humbly take back my proposition about metal whistles and join the ranks of those who only distinguish between well made and poorly made whistles and between good and bad whistle players.
My apologies for the unnecessary controversy. Cheers!
Hey P, for what it’s worth, I prefer the sound of the metal whistle in Irish Traditional music over wood. To my humble ears the wood ones don’t sound ’ Trad Irish’ but then again, that is just my opinion about what I happen to like.
Tin Whistle, Penny Whistle.
Few of them are made of tin anymore. Some are a far cry from a penny also. It looks like these names are just simply obsolete.
The only consideration that matters is how it sounds to the person playing it. If the player is happy then why argue about whether he/she plays a ‘true’ whistle or not? Traditionally, musicians have always played music on whatever instruments were available to them. If Fender stratocaster guitars had been around in the 18th century, then Turlough O’Carolan might very well have been a fender bender instead of a harper. Don’t argue. Relax. Enjoy. Music is the most fun you can have fully dressed. The more things there are to play it on the more fun it is.
[ This Message was edited by: nickb on 2001-12-18 05:53 ]
Isn’t it odd the Irish Music sounds best (to an Irish ear) on a wooden flute, but a metal whistle ;-D
On 2001-12-18 06:22, Martin Milner wrote:
Isn’t it odd the Irish Music sounds best (to an Irish ear) on a wooden flute, but a metal whistle ;-D
not only to the Irish ear for that matter I have been thinking about that too, the original wooden conical flute was transformed by Boehm into a cylindrical metal thingie as ‘an improvement’ while at the moment the perceived improvement on the whistles seems to go the other way around.
For the most part, I agree with NickB.
With exception to one implication.
Music fun doesn’t require being fully clothed.
Everything is better with music.
Enjoy Your Music,
Lee Marsh
[ This Message was edited by: LeeMarsh on 2001-12-18 11:58 ]
First off, I think a whistle is a whistle regardless of what material it is constructed from. As noted by others, whistles and other woodwind instruments have been made out of almost any durable natural material you can imagine. I think different materials do have different inherent acoustical characteristics which produce different sounds.
However, Martin Milner made in interesting observation, "Isn’t it odd the Irish Music sounds best (to an Irish ear) on a wooden flute, but a metal whistle " If this observation is correct I believe it is simply the result of economics and personal perception.
When tin whistles were introduced they were considerably less expensive, required less care, and played as easily as traditional wooden whistles; yet, the tin ones sounded slightly different than wooden ones. As a result of economics, most whistlers (many of whom lived by very humble means) chose a tin whistle over a wooden one; furthermore, one would not by an expensive wooden whistle for a child when a cheaper tin one would serve just as well and would likely be more durable. Over time the tin whistle became the traditional instrument because it was what most people used (and was all they could afford anyway). At some point (I don’t know when) somebody discovered that it was cheaper to glue a mass-produced injection-moulded plastic head on a chunk of brass pipe that they cut and drilled than to carve a wooden fipple plug that fit in a chunk of tin plate they had to roll, solder, and drill. Thus, most whistles today are made from some kind of metal pipe with a plastic mouthpiece - it is simply cheaper to make. Subsequently, wooden whistles have basically been on the decline (in favour of metal ones) for nearly 150 years.
With regard to the wooden flutes in Irish music, the reason is also mostly economic but also has a practical aspect. When Boehm-style flutes were invented (circa 1850)classical musicians quickly switched to them because they were chromatic (and lasted longer than wooden Baroque models). As a result, in the late 19th century there was a large supply of wooden Baroque flutes that found there way into secondhand shops at very low prices because nobody wanted them. The Irish bought them because they were cheap and because the fingering (six holes without keys or with 1 or 2 keys) was basically the same as a whistle which allowed for an easy transition from whistle to flute. As a result the wooden flute has been common to the Irish music scenefor a good 100 years.
Over this long period of time we have become so accustomed to hearing the sound of a metal whistle and wooden flute in Irish music such that when we hear the slightly different sounds of instruments made from other materialsit doesn’t sound “quite right”. But, this is simply a matter of perception - it is a bias based on our experience. It should be noted that newcomers to the Irish music scene do not carry with them any such bias.
Peter Laban wrote, “the original wooden conical flute was transformed by Boehm into a cylindrical metal thingie as ‘an improvement’”. I think there is the assumption that Boehm actually preferred metal as the material of choice for flutes but this was not the case. Boehm considered his flute design to be an improvement (which it certainly was for the classical musician) but the matter of material for constructing the flute is different. If you read the history on the subject it is quite clear that Boehm actually preferred the sound of wood over metal in at least some circumstances: “The silver flute is preferable for playing in very large rooms because of its great ability for tone modulation, and for the unsurpassed brilliancy and sonorousness of its tone. But on account of its unusually easy tone-production, very often it is over-blown, causing the tone to become hard and shrill; hence its advantages are fully realized only through a very good embouchure and diligent tone-practice. For this reason wooden flutes on my system are also made, which are better adapted to the embouchures of most flute players; and the wood flutes possess a full and pleasant quality of tone, which is valued especially in Germany. (from Theobald Böhm, trans. Dayton Miller, The Flute and Flute-Playing Dover, New York, 1964, pp. 54-55).” Nevertheless, metal was simply a better choice for modern mass production than wood (as noted earlier).
Personally, I love the sounds of wooden flutes and wooden whistles - the sounds are so full and rich that they are almost sensual. Then again, I don’t have an “Irish ear”. In the end its the music that counts and, as we all know, music is a very personal thing 
(Edited to correct a few typos and to say Merry Christmas to all!)
[ This Message was edited by: garycrosby on 2001-12-18 15:56 ]
To continue a bit on the Boehm subject, there are some some ‘in betweens’ , I wouldn’t call them hybrids but they are somewhere in between the boehm and the simple system wooden flute.
Paddy Carty used a wooden flute with a (semi) Boehm key system on which he did a wonderfull job playing all the odd keys from his East Galway area.
A number of flute makers makes wooden instruments with a metal/modern head(mouth piece or whatchamacallit)Eugene Lambe did a few of them and there is at least other one maker doing them in Miltown Malbay. This type is used by one of the fluteplayers I play with regularly: JP Downes fro mQuilty and it works great for him.
Plenty of digression from the original subject but there you have it.
Just a bit of Yuletide nonesense…
but…if the first whistle sound was made through pursed lips, then surely anything that is other than human flesh is a synthetic whistle material and anything made from it (including wooden whistles and flutes) is not ‘real’, at all? After that, it’s simply a question of what sounds ‘right’, isn’t it?
Steve
[ This Message was edited by: StevePower on 2001-12-19 11:51 ]
A whistle is a wind-blown intrument, diatonically tuned (therefore 6 holes) and with a fipple - otherwise it would be transverse and a flute. What it’s made of is irrelevant, though my own preference is for hardwood.