Advice on buying first (irish) flute, and a full silver muramatsu (silver flute) for sale/trade

Irish Flute
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Hi everyone!

I’ve played silver (concert) flute for many years and have had a lot of love for Celtic and baroque music over the years. I’ve also recently joined an Irish band with my silver flute and D thin whistle, so I’d like to expand my instruments, and I love the sound of the Irish flute. Since it plays rather differently than a silver flute, I don’t immediately want to spend too much on this new instrument before I’ve gotten myself better acquainted with it, but I would like an instrument that’s decent enough to get me through my first few years and doesn’t make playing considerably more difficult. I’ve been looking into delrin flutes from Galeon and M&E, been reading about pratten vs rudell models, and I’ve understood that McNeela is not a good place to start. I’m still trying to figure out a bit more about keyed flutes (for future reference, because 2k is a bit much for me atm) and if that’s something I’d be interested in.

For me personally, I’d like for the instrument to be able to play fairly loud, ideally with as little air as possible (my lung capacity isn’t the best), I also absolutely love the woody, whispy, somewhat mellow/dark tones I associate with irish flutes. I’d like to a have an instrument in D with good intonation (at A440) that is tuneable. I think my hands are medium-sized. If you know which model would fit best with that, I’d love to know.

My question to whomever would like to share their experience: what do you think is a good price range for a beginner flute? Is going for a keyless wooden instrument worth it, or is delrin perfectly fine to start with? What’s the best places to buy? (I live in Europe, the Netherlands). Are there shops to try these instruments (I’ve found none anywhere nearby online)? Is a 4-piece instead of 3-piece a good investment (or would 1 or 2 piece even suffice)? What about in-line and off-line hole placement? Which brands would be best? Are antique flutes good options (provided they play at A440)? And any other tips you could give.

Also, of course, if anyone wants to sell one of their more beginner-friendly models, please let me know (elinexxx97@gmail.com, or contact me through this forum if possible). If you want to trade flutes, I’d also be interested.

On that note: If anyone’s looking to buy a silver muramatsu flute, please also contact me. It is a fully revised model from the ‘80s, b-foot, off-set keys, full silver headjoint and body, open keys, e-mechanism. It’s a decent flute fit for flutists of intermediate to early professional level. Muramatsu’s are known for having a darker, woodier sound, which is true for this flute as well, although it is still quite refined and light compared to my other muramatsu flute. I’ve played on it extensively and found no issues with its play. I bought it for a friend who unfortunately wasn’t able to buy it from me after all, so it’s surplus for me now. It’s price would be around 2200 euro’s (newprice was around 4000, revision costs were around 1500). I’d be willing to trade for an irish flute, but my intended price range for my first irish flute is considerably lower.

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I would put Copley flutes on my radar if I were you. Copley flutes are, in my opinion, the most forgiving and beginner-friendly Irish flutes available. You can play them extremely loud, too (if you want to). And they’re just insanely good for the price in general. You can get one new for $395, and they’re often less than that if you get one used. You might have to wait a bit if you buy one new, though – sometimes there’s a fairly long waiting list for them.

I know some experienced players who really like M&E flutes. I personally had an M&E as my first flute, and I found it extremely difficult to play – much harder than my Copley. It was especially hard to play it with significant volume. I eventually sold it because I just couldn’t get the sound out of it that I wanted. But that may just be my personal experience (I’d never played flute at all before getting my M&E – not even silver flute).

It doesn’t really matter whether your flute is 2-piece, 3-piece, or 4-piece, particularly if you’re just starting out. That distinction is mainly aesthetic. The only real advantage you get from having a 3-piece rather than a 2-piece is that it’s easier to transport while disassembled. And a 4-piece flute is just a 3-piece with a longer foot on it (some people claim this improves the strength and/or tuning of the lower notes – if it does, it does so only marginally). The only thing I’d avoid is a 1-piece, because that won’t even be tunable.

Antique 440 flutes can be pretty good, but they tend to be hit-or-miss, especially if they’re no-name brands. And even the good ones tend to have more tuning issues than well-made modern Irish flutes.

As for material: for all the flute models that I’ve tried in both delrin and wood, I’ve never noticed any real difference while playing them, except that the wooden flutes tend to be slightly lighter (and maybe very slightly quieter). Wooden flutes are a bit more effort to maintain, and they also crack a lot easier, so I’m happy that I have a delrin flute. I do want a wooden flute eventually, because it’s more traditional, but I’m waiting till I get a keyed flute.

All this to say, there’s nothing at all wrong with starting on a delrin or plastic flute, especially if you’re thinking of upgrading to a keyed flute eventually anyway. They won’t really play any differently, and they usually cost less.

I should also mention that a nice benefit of the Copley delrin flutes is that unlike a lot of plastic flutes (such as M&E’s), they really look like they’re made out of wood. So their aesthetic is much more traditional. (I haven’t ever seen a Galeon delrin flute, so I’m not sure if they’re like this or not).

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Yes, Copley flutes come well-recommended in terms of price and quality.

Otherwise, a good to great keyless is priced from $800 to $1,600.

A good (maybe even a great) antique keyed flute “can” be found below $2,000; A great flute by a modern maker will be more like $3,500 and up. Success finding a great antique will depend on luck and knowledge. It’s perhaps the same with a modern made flute.

Rudall vs Pratten. This is less deterministic than you would think as either style from a modern maker will be good. It typically means medium vs large holed and a 4-piece vs a 3-piece construction. I’m in love with my medium-hole antique Rudall & Rose flute for it’s ease of playing, and the way it resonates and evokes harmonics.

Modern wooden-flute embouchures might be more forgiving than learning on an antique, until you zero in on your focus. (But that takes time in any case.) Embouchure training is where you will work to develop a dark, woody and/or reedy tone.

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Given what you wrote, it would probably make sense for you to first get a good keyless flute, and later move on to a keyed flute if you realize that you really like it and need a chromatic flute. Since you seem to be in Europe, it might be worth checking Baubet and Thompson. Both of them are based in Ireland, and make well regarded flutes at a fair price. (Thompson’s order book seems to be closed at the moment.) There are also second hand instruments that come up regularly, here or on specialized facebook groups.

As tstermitz said, the distinction between Rudall and Pratten is perhaps not so useful when it comes to modern makers. The 2 modern “Pratten” I’ve tried had smaller holes than my large hole Rudall, and felt completely different from the original Boosey Pratten I owned for a while. Some makers are also willing to make a “Pratten” with a split body if asked. Having said that, if you have medium-sized hands, it’s probably a good idea to look for a flute with small to medium-sized holes.

Finally, regarding loudness/air requirements: it’s extremely difficult to generalize because it really depends on the maker’s design (body and embouchure). I recently received a small-hole Rudall that is at least as loud as my large hole Rudall, which is plenty loud in itself, but it feels like the smaller holed flute takes less effort to get a comparable output, volume-wise. Both are excellent, but they play very differently. The point I’m trying to make is that the more flutes I play, the more I think each flute (or maker’s design) should be judged on its own merits. But for this, unfortunately, there’s no substitute to trying the flute yourself and seeing how it fits you and your musical context. Good luck!

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Continuing the discussion from Advice on buying first (irish) flute, and a full silver muramatsu (silver flute) for sale/trade:

One other thought: A decent instrument generally holds its value well and could be sold on with little loss financially. Since there’s no local wooden flute store, I’ve bought and sold a significant number over the years looking to find the ideal one for me. Some just didn’t work for me, some I sold as I (allegedly) improved or found a new sound I wanted to emulate. Bottom line to my suggestion is to get the best you can afford, let it teach you and then either keep long-term or sell it along at a minimal loss.

Best wishes.

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You could contact Steffen Gabriel. He makes some very nice flutes, keyed and keyless and has a variety of models to choose from. He is also an excellent player as well as maker.

Steffen Gabriel

He’s located in Sassenberg, Germany, which, by American standards, is not that far away from you. Yes, I know, in Europe 100 miles is a long distance, whereas in America 100 years is a long time.

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As already mentioned, a Thompson delrin flutes would be a brilliant place to start as the are hanade.in Ireland by Damian Thompson who is a passionate filter maker. How book is closed but keep an eye out for.aecond hand as being delrin, they will not be cracked

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I have an ebonite flute from Lorenzo Saracino that has a lip plate life a Boehm flute, has a great reedy sound, excellent tuning, and is modestly priced relative to its value.

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And with Steffen Gabriel, you have the option of ordering a keyless flute but with the blocks for the keys on. Later, when/if you decide you want some keys, he will retro-fit them for you.

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I read up on his flutes, and ebonite is quite a fascinating material - I did read that esthetically some colour changes can occur if a lot of heat is applied, has anything like that happened to your flute?

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As a left field suggestion, how about a 1-keyed Baroque flute? You can play all the folk music for keyless flute but you also get a full chromatic scale and (with practice) a 2 1/2 octave range. When I started I was going to go for a simple keyless flute but my husband persuaded me that I would have more scope with a 1-keyed one, and he was right, as I can potentially play everything on it. I started with the resin Aulos AF1, which is readily available and really quite good, with a strong sound though it won’t as loud as your silver flute. The cross-fingerings for the chromatic fingerings are a bit quiet in the first octave but in the second octave and above the volume is very even.

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Delrin is great. To my ear there’s no difference between it and wood… it just comes down to the quality of craftsmanship. I like not having to worry about humidity changes, lower maintenance, and less risk of cracking if it’s dropped. Delrin is denser than wood, so if you prefer light instruments watch out.

I’ll add my voice to the recommendations for Copley. I got a keyless delrin flute from him last year and I love it. Coming from the silver flute, my Copley feels very natural and didn’t require much adjustment in embrochure. The finger holes are quite small and I asked for closer spacing - as someone with small hands, this is the most comfortable flute I’ve ever played. It has good tone in both octaves, strong bottom D, good tuning, and has enough volume to carry well in a noisy pub session with 6-7 other players. For an Irish flute it has a relatively clear, mellow sound (not breathy or reedy). Mr. Copley was great to work with… very responsive to email, and walked me through the options. Orders take a few months. He was clear & accurate about the wait time.

For context I’ve played silver flute and whistle for 20 years, but not very seriously. I’d consider myself at an intermediate skill level. While this is the first “Irish” flute I’ve owned I have tried a variety of keyless wood and bamboo flutes from friends.