Well, since this is getting flogged still I will add: I play with someone who doesn’t care for the sheets. The problem is that he will sometimes get it in his head that the tune goes a certain way, which is not how we STARTED (based on an agreed sheet version). Then the rest of us have to either tell him not to do it that way, or we all change for him. And, based on the anti-sheet sentiment and appreciation that he has tried so hard to free himself from the sheets, you hate to rain on the parade.
This can happen even with the most common session tunes. I play tune X the way I heard it on a record, find the sheet (both Norbeck and Breathnach have some pretty faithful transcriptions from famous recordings), distribute to band for a tuneset and am happy with it. He practices for a bit, finds a slightly different way while in the process of memorizing it, then does not know he’s deviated OR goes back to a version in his head he may have learned elsewhere. Just something to think about, if you are in a state ofi absolute condemnation.
My goodness weekenders, one of the things that makes irish music nice is to have different versions, variations, played at once! You are trying to kill what makes it interesting. ITM is no freakin’ classical music!
Absolutely. If someone in your session can’t adapt to multiple variations of a tune they should just sit that one out.
Also, this is where it really helps to have an older/wiser/more experienced/more respected person to, if not lead, then at least to shepard the session, so that anyone who is not mixing in can be told off and their word accepted.
While I agree listening as much as possible to the music is incredibly important, I’m a bit dismayed to see such strong statements against sessions - like saying it’s a blessing to only have CDs of the masters to learn from.
Learning only from CDs isn’t that different from learning from sheet music - they’re both static mediums presenting one way to play a tune. If we all played Jig of Slurs like Matt Molloy does on Stony Steps we might just as well all be learning off of sheet music.
Sessions, simply playing tunes with a friend, lessons - any exposure to someone else’s playing style I think is valuable and keeps the music alive.
Couldn’t agree more about that last paragraph. And all of us playing the Jig of Slurs like Matt Molloy on Stony Steps, in unision, is pretty much my idea of hell. Not purgatory, mind you: hell.
Well I must agree that a world where everybody played tunes exactly like Matt Molloy would be hell. I wasn’t refering to those types of recordings though. I wasn’t refering to any commercial recordings infact. I’m talking about old archive recordings and things of that nature. That’s my spin on it and you don’t have to like it. And regarding sessions, the more sessions I’ve been able to attend the more I’m convinced that most of them are crap. Now if you are somehow are around a good session then go for it but as I know many or most of us aren’t; so unless you want to play like crap I would advice not learning tunes from them. But then again there are those that try to validate their tune learning by saying they do go to great sessions and well you know… Anyways, I’m too tired to think straight after the tunes last night and catherine’s class this morning so I’m prolly not making any sense at all.
I can’t argue that last few sentences there… playing music with eachother is valuable and at the end of the day that is what itm is all about.
Actually, unless the practicioner in question is already well versed in the idom of the music, there will be a big difference learning from sheet music and learning off a recording. A recording, static medium or no, is still infinitely more complete than sheet music - thats pretty much a given I think. There are also a range of recordings of different renditions of the same tune played by different people of different styles.
The truth is that Irtrad is what you make of it, even if you play from a book. If it was any different I am sure I would have heard about it long long long ago.
I have played for nearly half a century, I began in Ireland when there were no Chieftains or anyother popular recordings about. I played free reed, TW, fiddle, banjo etc. There is NO right or wrong way to do it, and there never was!
If you think you should play like Matt Molloy - tell me this, who do you think Matt thinks he is playing like?
The heart of Irtrad was always the humor of it not the fancy playing. It still is. You just have to slow down for a while to find yourself again. Its you that is lost when you can’t tell which way is better, so the answer is neither.
Sometimes a setting may need to be gotten by ear, but even that can be achieved on paper with a little imagination and a biro , ever hear of a ‘phrase’?
When you get over making bad sound on any instrument and slow down the whole thing changes like the sun comming out on a cloudy day in Ireland in the month of June. It is utterly impossible to explain but completely overpowering when it happens. Enjoy!
I am talking about band tunes, not sessions. When you listen to your favorite cds, are they playing three different versions on a given figure simultaneously?
The answer is no.
Groups like Lunasa, Solas, Patrick Street, Altan and others are pretty tight, even if you think its freakin’ classical music. Sessions can be nice and loose though with that and upon repetition, you can find common ground by close listening. I agree with it there for sure.
I wasn’t defending using sheets any longer than initially but pointing out something that can happen. No biggie..
But no surprise from you, Az, considering what Jack said on other thread about how you play with others! Nyuk.
Azalin
I think I know what you are saying, and I understand your frustrations.
The old saying “ignorance is bliss” is true. The more you learn about Irish Traditional Music, the more you appreciate it when it is played well. We happen to live in Canada, far away from the source - Ireland.
Unfortunately, here, too many players of Irish tunes have no knowledge or interest in learning about this genre. This leads to session situations that are very frustrating and disappointing for those who take the time to listen and learn the style. And as knowledge and ability improves, the harder it is to find a “good” and satisfying session. Slow, learning sessions are fine, but it sure feels good to let loose and play in a really good session once in a while - and now you have been to Ireland, you really know what you are missing!
So, what I do is listen lots & practice with CDs; get together as often as possible with the best players around (even one other) who challenge you to improve; and try to go to Ireland as often as you can to get refreshed and recharged. And let me know if you ever plan to come to Winnipeg - we don’t have a lot of good players but we do have a few, and we’ll have a fine session with you.
I was just listening to the Solti/CSO recording of Mahler’s 1st symphony.
Such amazing depth of expression! Such deep, soul-stirring music! I can’t imagine what people must be missing by using sheet musi—oh, wait a minute…
Azalin, I think people grossly exaggerate what it means to use sheet music. Probably because most of our experience is with new students who only have a little more skill reading dots then they have playing by ear. You see people at a festival reading from sheet music, and of course it sounds all TAH TAH, TA TA TAH…
You should learn by ear, but IMHO this is entirely for pragmatic reasons. Ear learning is good for your brain, and you learn important skills much faster. The genre (short, melodic tunes) is well-suited for ear-learning, moreover the genre ill-suited for learning from dots; and so since there is no need for dots, you’re better off not bothering.
But I just don’t buy this etc etc about expression or soulfulness of the music, being somehow missed by those who use sheet music. It is quite simply contradicted by tons of recorded evidence you can find in any record store.
Perhaps this boils down to the genre-warfare, in which folkies consider classical music robotic and emotionless after reading that on the Internet somewhere; just as some classical buffs consider just about any music not played in an orchestra hall not really music.
I’ll admit to using sheet music–only because it’s near impossible to pick apart a CD tune played by the professionals like Mary Bergin, Kevin Crawford, and Joannie Madden. They’re just too fast. Are there tutorial-like recordings out there to help one learn by ear that go slowly? Any other resources (on-line, perhaps?) that might be of help?
When you say learn, do you mean learn to play, or learn a specific tune? If you want to learn to play, you could try something like the Mad4Trad CD ROM. If you want to learn a specific tune, or a specific version of a tune, there is slowdown software that will do that for you too. Do a search on these forums, as the software issue has come up several times.
Hi DJM–should have been more specific. I meant to learn a tune. Thanks for the suggestion to try a “slow down” software. I’ll search the site and see what comes up. Thanks.
Ran across a neat story on the Fiddler’s Companion when I was looking up the Flogging Reel to see if I could find out why it’s named that:
O’Neill (1913) mentions this tune in an anecdote about uilleann piper Patrick Ward, a 19th century farmer-piper of Blackbull, Drogheda. Ward was an accomplished fiddler before he picked up the pipes, but learned, as most did, by ear. His first lesson in writing music was not without difficulty; "having neither pen nor ink, he was told by his teacher, ‘a dark man’, to burn a furze stick and write with its calcined end. This expedient served fairly well. From that day to this he says that whenever he takes a pen in his hand to write music his mind reverts to “the Flogging Reel,” which was the first tune set down in the manner mentioned.
They also refer to it as the Slashin Reel, the Humours of Bantry Bay, the Newry Lass, and the Fife Reel.
Which leads to another question I find interesting: what is the place of the fife in the Tradition? With the exception of Skip Healy, I don’t know of many fifers now that play Trad music…was there a time that fifes were common?
Thanks–I have a deep respect for your level of knowledge and your willingness to share it.
