A. Rogge chanter : Problem with low octave

Uilleann Pipes
1

Hi !

I have a chanter from A. Rogge that is brand new with 2 reeds from the same maker. I play on a practise set, bellows & bag are from C.J. Dixon.

I really love the sound of my A. Rogge chanter and it is well and precisely tuned. Yet I find it extremely difficult to play the low octave.

Although I do not consider myself as a skilled piper, I think I am now not too bad at mastering my belows & bag, even if not perfect.

I understand that each chanter plays differently and that it takes some time to master it. However, I’m worrying about not being able to play the low notes incl. the low D when it seems to me that these should be the easiest one to play. At least when I compare to my previous chanter e.g. a C.J. Dixon.

Has anybody experienced the same ?

Thanks in advance for your answers !

2

Hi Tigrou,

Firstly, are you covering all of the holes properly - no air leaking out anywhere?

If you are satisfied that there are no air leaks, then it is possible that the reed is closed too much. You will have to adjust the reed so that the lips are a little more open. Can you post a photo of your reed? Adjustment depends on the type of bridle on the reed. This can be copper wire or a copper band.

You could, of course, contact Andreas Rogge and ask him for advice. Most makers are happy to give advice on their own pipes.

3

Thanks for your swift answer, PJ.

Yes, I’m 100% sure I have no air leaks. Actually, I’ve visited a pipe maker while on holidays since A. Rogge is located too far from my home and there are unfortunatly very little pipe maker in my country… So this other pipe maker had a look at my chanter, tried it with its original reed then with some of his and came to the same conclusion: hard to get the low notes. Not impossible but pretty difficult. If I refer to my two other chanters (C.J. Dixon and a “plastic” chanter), while trying to play the same tunes low notes are pretty hard to come on the Rogge even when I’m particularly paying attention at not throwing too much air, which is a mistake a beginner piper can often make.

I wanted to include a picture to this post but found out that I do not know how to do this, shame on me ! I’ll have a look in the FAQ.

Anyway, the briddle is a copper wire and I’m not sure how to open the reed in such a case. I’m used to copper bands.

In the meantime I’m also contacting A. Rogge to get his advice.

4

Two things come to my mind:

  1. (As PJ wrote) the reed could have become leaky. There is a way to check it: Suck the reed (like a cigarette/pipe). It should snap close. Keep on sucking then. Extremely little to no air should go through it (the less air the better the reed). BTW - you should be able to get it snapped close by “puffing” alone. If you have to use your lungs (be careful!) for it the reed is too “open” (however, it mustn´t close too easy, either).
  2. The bag could have become leaky. Make sure that it is absolutely pressure-tight. Though the bottom notes take the least pressure they cause the most trouble.
5

I had a leak in the binding once that drove me nuts. To ensure no leaks there, scrub with beeswax and then polish to a shine with the bark side of a reed scrap.

6

I have 2 Rogge sets. It sounds like a reed issue.
Here are some thoughts:

  1. get an experienced piper to play the chanter and tell you what he/she thinks. You might find the issue is your style of playing/preference vs the preferred set-up of a particular maker

  2. reeds I have had from Andreas were easy blowing for a little while then became quite hard as they acclimatised to my house. I had to adjust them (warm houses arent good for reeds anyway, and Andreas’ workshop is not a hothouse (ever)

  3. a chanter reed supplied new will usually be set up at the required pressure to match drones and regs. Different makers go for subtly different reed strengths, and I like my Rogge chanter reeds to be a little stronger to maintain stability. A softer reed can be set up but may be less stable intemperature changes etc.
    A friend of mine could never get his regs going properly…until he got a stronger reed in his chanter, and suddenly his regs were much happier and in tune. He matches an O’Briain chanter with a Rogge drones/regs. His drones are very steady, he never seems to have to tune them. His regs were not the same story until the slightlystiffer reed came along.

  4. there is often a compromise between easy playing reeds and stability (with a few exceptions, of course…and long waiting lists for the guys that can produce stable but easy set-ups). All reedmakers have individual preferences, and some makers also have preferences.

Your story reminds me … I handed my chanter and its “hard” to play reed over to Robbie Hannan once
and he had a squeeze.
He played it, then handed it back and told me to eat more eggs for breakfast (as my set-up wasn’t unreasonable !!!)

Dunno if any of the above will help, but I hope it does…

7

it would be unusual to have to season the bag if it is new (is it one from Rogge or from someone else? a bag playing a very light set up might also start to leak when a higher pressure is required for a stiffer reed)

-it would be very strange to have not one but two leaky new reeds …I presume the problem is happening with both reeds?

-how did the set play on the first day or so after you received it?
-has it changed since then?


-you don’t say how the upper octave is playing for you
that info would be helpful too


Boyd

8

If I was the maker I’d be well miffed with this. Being a new set surely your first port of call is to discuss it with the maker rather than on a public forum :wink:

9

Antibes is quite a different climate to Germany so it is almost certainly a reed issue. There are a few UP players in the South of France e.g. Toulon, Marseilles and also near St Tropez so it would be good if you could make contact with one of these as they may be able to correct the problem. Jerome in Marseilles also does lessons and will see if I can find his contact details

You could also contact Marc Ruvini who organises the annual Boulegan Festival in St Jean du Gard (Paques) as he may know of pipers in your area http://www.festival-boulegan.com/

To check for leaks remov the pipes and stop up the stocks inflate bag and apply pressure and see if the bag goes down or air can be heard escaping. The warmer drier mediterranean climate may have caused the stocks to shrink and become leaky around the tying in. If this is the case then they will need retying

If the bag is suspect then contact Andreas for advice on sealing it

Chris

10

The Rogge workshop makes hundreds of excellent chanters every year, I have three; a silly post on an internet forum can not spoil their reputation. Their customer service is far the best: you can even learn reed making from Andreas at least three times a year.

11

@ Morning wood & Nemethmik:

you should not worry, I have indeed contacted Andreas Rogge to get his expert opinion. As mentioned in my initial post:I really love the sound of my A. Rogge chanter and it is well and precisely tuned.

If not clear enough this means that although I find it difficult to play I have no doubt about its highest quality, also explaining why after cautious considerations I have decided earlier this year to order this chanter to Andreas. If I had to make this decision again I’m 100% positive that I would order a chanter to him. And when I will have succeeded to master this chanter well enough I will order my half set to him.

I’ve also mentionned in my first post that although I’m not a total beginner, I do not consider myself as a skilled piper. Meaning that although I suspect a reed issue most probably linked to the specific climatic conditions of the Côte d’Azur/french Riviera, I also certainly do not exclude the possibility that moving to a high quality chanter could be an additional reason for my current problems. I was thinking that some other pipers may have experienced this in their “young piper years” with a Rogge chanter and would share their views.

Now I have learned from both your posts that I’d better wait for the next 10 years or so to become a fully skilled piper before daring to post “silly” questions.

This is not the idea I had about forums. Iwas silly enough to think these were dedicated to allow musicians to exchange in an humble manner on their respective experiences, beginners gaining precious advices from more experienced ones etc. This is obvioulsly not your point of view.

@ all others :

Many thanks for your very helpful and supportive answers. To summarize here are some answers to your questions:

it would be unusual to have to season the bag if it is new (is it one from Rogge or from someone else?

Bag and bellows are from another make -now I’m more cautious about mentioning names, sorry… :frowning:
a bag playing a very light set up might also start to leak when a higher pressure is required for a stiffer reed)

It is true that I have considered changing the belows for Andreas production -but this was additional money to spend… suspecting that these were maybe well adapted for another type/first chanter but maybe not for this new one.

I also maybe have to mention that these belows had a very thick and hard leather on which I’ve sweated a lot when I’ve started playing, on top of normal sweating on belows for a beginner.

Once Peter Browne came to give a UPs master class at the Festival Interceltique de Lorient, I went to discuss this particular point with him and he recognized that my bellows leather was particularly hard, showed me his for comparison, saying he never experienced my problem but had no precise advice to help softening it. Since then, over the last 2 years the leather has gradually softened while I was playing and playing and playing… yet I must admit it remains harder than most of the belows I have been able to see here and there. My UP teacher also noticed it but never actually tried them as they do not fit her waist.

-it would be very strange to have not one but two leaky new reeds …I presume the problem is happening with both reeds?

It is more pronounced with one of the 2 reeds and while double checking I’ve noticed that the worst one is less open. So here is probably the answer… :tomato:

-how did the set play on the first day or so after you received it?
-has it changed since then?

Well… didn’t want to mention this before… I’ve received my set in July while I was in the hospital due to unexpected illness. When I was back home I had to wait for some weeks before being able to try it- was a real torture to look at this gorgeous chanter without being able to play it :tantrum: !

I’ve tried it as soon as possible before sending a thank-you mail to Andreas, explaining why I had not been back to him earlier and telling him that I already had pbs to play the low notes but was thinking this was due to my physical conditions. Had to wait until Sept. to be able to fully recover with my bellows arm. At that time I was spending some time in Brittany (where most french pipers are located) so went to see a pipe maker down there to get his opinion => was it me or a reed pb… or both ?

He’s kindly spent 30 minutes trying it with his bellows & bag, my reed on my chanter or one of his, got the same result with my reed + chanter, tried one of what he called his best reed on my chanter, found out that it was a bit better although he clearly noticed that my chanter was much more difficult to “control” than one of his and that my reed was definitly not permissive in terms of switching from high to low octave or simply to get the low D (=> diagnosis in french was “anche qui octavie très très facilement !”), made me try all this by my own (with my own belows & chanter) looking & listening to me playing, looked more closely to the inside of my chanter and removed a “few dirts” then concluded that yes, it would take some time to master this chanter.

-you don’t say how the upper octave is playing for you
that info would be helpful too

The high octave is perfect so far. The pb being really that the low octave does not come naturally but instead the high notes come in the first instance. I pay specific attention not to throw too much air into the chanter, but when I have the bag full and I relase the pression on it and stop the bellows I should be able to get the low D right away. Correct me if I’m wrong but an easy and stable low D is essential, right ? Well, it is essential to get all notes, OK :wink: … but one should - after 2 years playing, be able to get this fairly easily !

So, when playing series of high octave notes then trying to go back to low notes is a real pain. I either get high notes or a mute chanter. As an example I often play Sean Bhui followed by Ward’s jig and find it easy to play the 1st tune but when switching to the second which is technically easier, it turns out to be a real pain => switching from high to low notes is nearly impossible with one reed and very difficult with the second one.

There are a few UP players in the South of France e.g. Toulon, Marseilles and also near St Tropez so it would be good if you could make contact with one of these as they may be able to correct the problem. Jerome in Marseilles also does lessons and will see if I can find his contact details

You can really count pipers located in this area on one single hand… however I’ve met a few located in Marseille, far more experiences than me, but I’ve never met Gilles. I hope I can drive to Marseille towards end of Nov to attend a session. We do not have sessions anymore in the Nice area. This may hopefully change soon, my whistle teacher is working on trying to re-start them…

My UP teacher is located in Marseille (Veronique), 2 hours drive/one way from Antibes. Since I’m currently on a chemotherapy it is not really serious to drive 4 hours in a single day and I’m unfortunaty even more isolated. But after mid-November when my treatment is over I’ll be able to commute again.

I’ve recently had an e-mail exchange with a piper located next to Antibes but lost contact. Hope he will answer my last mail as I do not have any other contact ingo on him…

However, thanks for the link, Chris, I will contact Marc Ruvini to get more info on pipers located in the Region Provence Alpes Côte d’Azur.

In conclusion: as soon as I will be able to travel again I will join a UPs & reed making workshop in Brittany and/or Ireland. I must admit that fiddling with my proper reeds (from reed makers !) makes me very nervous as I know that if I spoil them then I’m stuck for weeks. For the time being I will now follow some of the instrcutions Andreas gave me since I’ve sent my initial post and will keep in mind all your positive remarks.

And I’ll try to go back to reed making although, being fully conscious that one can hardly pretend to be a solid piper without knowing how to deal with reeds. And learning how to make reeds with the NP Dublin DVD + info collected on the web still represents a great challenge.

Let’s say that I kill pieces of cane one after another (at least it is relatively easy to buy some at reasonable cost down here!) and I add up questions to be asked when I ultimatly join one of these workshops… will most probably be a very demanding trainee ! :wink:


cheers !

12

The combination of these two points sounds to me that most likely, the problem is not the reed at all but the control of the air supply. Most of Andreas’ Reeds play the upper octave very easily indeed. This is totally desirable but does require good control over air supply and pressure, which, in turn, is nearly impossible to achieve with a hard bellows and/or bag (BTW, what’s the bag like?).
The solution of the problem (although maybe not the only one) might well be, to replace the bellows leather - the hard leather will do you no good. This is not much of a problem if the leather is nailed or tacked to the wood (in this case it will also be glued additionally), if your bellows are stitched, it is much more difficult (but still possible). If in doubt, have a competent pipemaker do it for you.

13

Very true! :thumbsup: Tigrou, take it easy and calm down. I did not want to offend, I am really sorry. I used the wrong word, I should have used the term “incautious” or “hasty” No problem with questions on the forum, but you should not have written the names of the makers in your original post. You wrote “I have problems with the chanter of XXX maker but I had no problem with the chanter of YYY maker”. All of us have or used to have problems, but I’d definitely stay away from comments with negative connotations about the makes of reputable makers.
BTW: Honestly, noone can solve your problems via Internet; all the comments you received to your question are completely generic and useless to your particular unbelievably weird case.

14

a-ha !!! when you say “too hard” you have confused us other pipers…see below…

  1. in your reeds, the low octave is hard to control, jumps up to the upper octave, especially when you are already playing in the upper octave and try to go down

  2. the reed always wants to jump up to the second octave

in fact, your reed isnt “hard” if we use conventional piping terminology. A hard reed is one that will play the lower octave with some effort but won’t jump to the upper without a great deal of pressure

your reed is by definition then “not hard” and it suggests the lips of your reeds are too closed

to support this fact, you said that the problem is worse in the reed that is more closed at the lips.

The pb being really that the low octave does not come naturally but instead the high notes come in the first instance.

It sounds like You need to adjust the reeds by adjusting the bridle
I would have thought that an experienced piper would have tried this, only you will know.

Heat and humidity will close reed lips, cold and dry climates do the opposite, usually.

15

Another thought from a Rogge owner: Your chanter is likely to have a rush or a V-shaped piece of plastic stuffed into the lower end of your chanter. This is to correct the tuning of the hard bottom “D”. Sometimes by accident this rush wanders up the bore towards the reed end and causes the octave to jump or produces squeaking when trying to play the low notes. You should also check this. The rush should sit right at the bottom end of the chanter

16

I have a couple of observations:

First, I think mentioning the name of the maker is fine. It’s almost impossible to give good suggestions without knowing the maker. The issue of making a “criticism” of the maker can be taken care of by choice of words, and not jumping to the conclusion that there is a defect.

My hunch, based on all of your description, and the fact that other pipers can observe the problem with their own setup and reed, is that this is not a bag and bellows issue. The symptoms would normally be associated with reeds that are too closed.

There is one other possibility. An extremely small leak in the top half of a chanter can cause this sort of problem. You do not mention whether your chanter has keys, but if so I would suggest checking the key seats. If you can do it safely, you might try removing the upper keys temporarily and sealing the key seats with tape or blu-tack; sometimes you can do this temporarily with airtight tape without removing the key. A very subtle leak in a C natural key or high C# key can cause the symptoms you describe. Such a leak could come about in a variety of ways.

You don’t mention the wood of the chanter. On very rare occasions, tiny imperfections in timber can be present which can cause this. In the case of ebony you might look very carefully to rule out a hairline crack. In the case of boxwood or another timber with knots, this symptom could be caused by a tiny “pinhole” knot in a hidden location (say, underneath a mount). Sealing the knot, porosity, or crack will cause the problem to go away (though this is a job for the maker, who will know the timber and what material to use).

best regards,

Bill

17

Billh, you were right: there was a pb with the stop key.
Since then I have sent back my chanter to Andreas, who has fixed it, and in the meantime has looked at the 2 original reeds that came with the chanter.

Everything is now working perfectly and the chanter and reeds play great. :thumbsup: