https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/m-e-r-r-8-key-ebonite-flute-impressions/64620/5
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Thanks for the correction. What I had in mind was that I have never played an ebonite D flute.
I did briefly play a very old ebonite F flute at Ralph Sweet’s place and was impressed by its sound,
but I can’t generalize to other keys. It had turned a nice shade of green, by the way.
I wonder if anyone has done a blind comparison of a tune played on a wood and delrin flute from the same maker? I’m curious to hear the difference. Of course audible difference is only one of the types of differences, wood could feel and handle differently too. In my case I am on a budget so I went with delrin and I prefer not to even try a wooden flute especially one with keys for fear that I’ll end up with one! 
Yes, I’ve played Blackwood and Delrin Olwell Nicholson’s side by side in a quiet room. I also had someone else in the room play those flutes for me while I had my back turned. I was just barely able to tell them apart, and my ear for such things is better than most, I would put good money down that the vast majority of players couldn’t tell the difference in a blind test. I think the Olwell comparison is a good one in particular because Patrick is one of the most consistent makers from flute to flute with regards to tone and playability.
I will say this though, whether or not the headjoint is lined does make a difference: An unlined Delrin flute will sound slightly softer/warmer/less “glassy” than one with a lined headjoint. Much like a woodenflute.
Loren
Say Cunparis, how are you getting on with your Copley derlin?
This is your first ‘Irish’ flute?
Thanks.
Can you explain what you mean by being “lined”? Are Copley Delrin flutes lined? How can I check?
This is my first horizontal flute of any kind. I got it while on vacation in the US so I didn’t really get to play it until we got back to France a week and a half ago. I was very surprised at my progress. I’ve been practicing jumping octaves to work on the embouchure and even trying for the overtones (getting A while fingering D).
While the embouchure was easier than I expected, the fingering and holding the flute is more difficult (I’m used to low whistle with piper’s grip and I use a classic grip on the flute). As a result I can’t play very fast or for very long periods of time.
One other thing, my embouchure is not efficient because I run out of breath and even feel a bit light-headed. 
I’m considering doing a couple skype lessons to find out how to improve and find any problems.
As for the Copley, I have no way to make a comparison but I’m very happy with it and when I get a keyed one, a Copley keyed Delrin would be at the top of my list.
Metal tube inside the Delrin/wood head.
Are Copley Delrin flutes lined?
Not the basic ones, but Dave told me the ones with tuning slides normally are and I’m considering that for my keyed flute.
How can I check?
Look inside… but I’ll bet it’s not!
Mine is not. So if I understand correctly, that’s a good thing as far as sound goes.
Wouldn’t a wooden one have a tuning slide and therefore sound similar to a delrin with a tuning slide (lined head)?
I’ve been enjoying using Rocky O’ Grada’s totorial;
https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/cp-new-flute-tutor-by-conal-o-grada/79515/1
You’ve got many options for Skype flute teachers to.
Depends on taste, what you want it for and stuff like that (note Loren’s comment re. ‘slightly softer/warmer/less “glassy” than one with a lined headjoint’).
Wouldn’t a wooden one have a tuning slide and therefore sound similar to a delrin with a tuning slide (lined head)?
Yes, probably, if fully lined. But it’s not that simple when you can get unlined, fully lined, half lined etc. (with or without a tuning slide) in either…
That is an interesting and useful comparison between delrin and blackwood Loren.
I was partly basing my comment on something I recall reading from Terry McGee. I think Terry carried out some experiments and reached a conclusion that the materials he compared had very little or no effect on the sound of the flutes. I don’t recall the details, what the materials were, etc. I seem to recall that one was glass and one wood. I was very surprised.
My personal experiences are that lined heads do sound a slightly ‘softer’ and ‘warmer’ IMHO. I only have one unlined headjoint wood flute to base this on though.
My experience with delrin is with my Forbes which I have had for about a year. I have played lots of other flutes. When I first got it I felt I could hear a ‘harder’, less ‘woody, colder’ sound from it. Maybe slightly more like a Boehm flutes ‘typical’ tone. When I got to know how to blow it for different effects and how it responds I found how to loose the cold and hard and bring out the warm and soft more. I tend to prefer the tone of my Boosey but the Forbes is great and I can make it sound very similar to the Boosey. Their ‘natural, unadjusted’ characters is very different though. Of course this is all due, or nearly all, to the ‘design’ differences not the materials.
So given your experience of there being a very slight difference in the sound I would think that once a skilled player has the feel and response of the delrin sorted out they would be able to make it sound the same. Just think of how ‘woody’ some metallic Boehm players can sound. That is a very much bigger ‘natural’ sound of the flute to adjust.
Here’s another comparison of the delrin/wooden Nicholson flutes, from JessieK:
‘As the only person in the world to own a delrin Olwell flute, I think I can add something to this conversation. While a listener might be fooled about the material of a flute, the player knows and can feel the difference. The delrin Olwell has the same dimensions as any other Nicholson style Olwell flute (when the lined headjoint is paired with a wooden Olwell Nicholson body, it sounds great), but something about the plastic bore is just a little bit less sonorous, a bit less sensual. There is, most certainly, something special about wood. It feels and smells different, more alive, more animate (as opposed to inanimate).’
https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/non-wooden-irish-flutes-a-good-choice/21686/1
Also, from the last page of the same thread, a part of a post from flutemaker, Casey Burns:
‘Theoretically it would be possible to make a plastic flute sound well with attention to these fine details. I experimented with flutes out of polyester resin sold as “alternative ivory”, and found that I could get close to the sound of my wooden flutes - but there was a certain lack of warmth and friendly feel to this material, so I abandoned this. It was probably due to these microscopic features, especially bore ovality.’
Nothing the matter with delrin flutes, and I do think that if a delrin player wants to notice a difference,
s/he is more likely to find it in a wooden flute.
But a later post of hers suggests that it was the feel and smell rather than the performance she didn’t like…
Also, from the last page of the same thread, a part of a post from flutemaker, Casey Burns:
Casey also says something similar (‘A wooden flute just feels better to the player than a plastic instrument’) on his site. And nobody’s disputing that some simply prefer its look, feel, smell, history or whatever. But, despite him continuing to state that ‘The wood adds something complex and lovely to the sound that is lacking in any plastic instrument’, it’s evident from discussions like this that not even all makers (let alone players) necessarily agree with him there!
I’m going to do something that’ll get me flamed like crazy…say “balderdash” to both Casey and JessieK.
Listen to Turlach Boylan, preferably in person if possible…warm, sonorous, alive…whatever you want to call it, he has it playing an ebonite flute that is metal lined throughout the entire instrument (seriously). I don’t know of a single flute player whose instrument sounds more alive than Turlach.
A player may enjoy the feel of a wooden flute, but the tone is primarily you and the instrument’s build. I know someone will say I’m contradicting myself based upon the ebonite link above, and I am. I’ve just come full circle again to it’s the player camp. In addition, I think the primary issue is psychological in nature. Someone prefers wood, they sound better on wood. Someone prefers polymer, they sound better on that…I think its’ all in our heads.
There is nothing about a wooden instrument that makes it inherently better, sounds more alive, etc. than an alternative materials instrument all other things being considered (bore, embouchure cut, tone hole cuts, etc.).
Eric
…That’s been my experience as too.
Partly in response to Jayhawk, but other points as well.
Turloch Boylan – and his flute – is the exception. No other top player that I know of plays a flute made of anything other than wood. (And from what I have heard, Turloch is now playing a wood flute made by a top maker. I hope somebody can confirm or deny this). I would be delighted if I had a “plastic” flute that played and handled as well as a wood flute. It would be much less bother. It wouldn’t crack or warp, even if I left it in the car overnight. But there is a difference and to hear people deny that difference is astounding.
The fact that a flute sounds like wood from a distance - in the hands of another player - doesn’t mean that the player can’t tell the difference. What a flute sounds like to me, as I play it, is far more important than what it sounds like to somebody else. At this point I know when I sound good and when I don’t. And I know that I sound better on a wood flute than on a plastic flute.
And sound is only part of the pleasure of playing a flute. A plastic flute doesn’t have the same feel in my hands as a wooden flute. I can hold a wooden flute better. A plastic flute always seems more slippery and harder to hold. It is also heavier (I suppose depending on the kind of plastic) than a wood flute. A plastic flute seems to vibrate less in my hands and that conveys a dead quality. When I am on, my wood flute has a buzz that I can feel with my fingers and that I have never felt with a plastic flute. I assume this is due to the different grain characteristics of wood and plastic.
And I further assume that the different grain characteristics have some effect on the sound of the flute. Flute makers will tel you that a thousandth of a millimeter one way or the other can have a profound effect on how the flute will play. Is it any wonder that a different material will also have an effect on the sound?
I am not morally or aesthetically opposed to using plastic for instrument making. I love my carbon fiber fiddle bow and I prefer it to the Pernambuco bow that is worth four times as much as my Coda Classic. Nor is this to deny that there are some very good plastic flutes being made now. In fact I have two - both made by David Copley, in D and C, and they have their uses. And I imagine it is possible that at some point somebody will make a plastic flute that sounds as good, and handles as well, as a wood flute. I will be happy to buy it if that time ever comes. But in the meantime I can hear and feel the difference between a plastic and a wood flute. I can also tell the difference between flutes made from different kinds of wood. People who say that they can’t discern these differences are either being obtuse, have not played enough different instruments, or can’t yet play well enough to tell the difference.
Julia D. - I’ll let you know what Turlach says when I hear back from him. It’s been several months since he last dropped in and played at one of our sessions, so maybe he has changed flutes. The last time I saw the Chapelle I seem to recall at least one rubber band was used to hold down at least one key, and it certainly looked like it could fall apart at the drop of a hat. I’m not sure how repairable an ancient ebonite flute is…especially when it’s lined throughout the flute like his is.
Do you know Joseph Carmichael? Young flute player out of the Dallas area now playing with the KC based band Kelly (this is Turlach’s former band). He dumped a blackwood flute by a well known maker to player a delrin Seery.
Regardless of who plays what, I definitely agree with you that players have a strong reaction to the flute they’re playing, and plenty of players do report they feel a difference playing and hearing themselves play wooden vs. polymer flutes (or even one wood over another). I also think how a person feels about the flute they’re playing is by far the most important factor for buying a flute.
Eric
I certainly agree that wood and polymer feel different in the hands - I certainly prefer the wood for the better grip and wonderful vibration that makes you feel more connected to the instrument you are playing.
Different woods absolutely sound different from one another, and plastics differ from wood as well. How much different is the question really, which of course depends on the listener and whether they are playing or listening at a distance. Hearing ability is partly genetic, partly developed, so it varies from person to person. Those who play, or play around, many instruments over a long period of time are likely to notice differences more, particularly so if they happened to be blessed with good auditory genetics. Newer players or the unlucky few with less acute hearing due to poor genetics, illness or injury are going to have a more difficult time hearing differences. Such is the way of nature and nurture.
With regards to absolutely identical instruments (as identical as handmade can be) the difference between Blackwood and Delrin is, in terms of tone, certainly noticeable to those of us who are sensitive to such things, but I have to say it’s slight. Pretty close to the difference between cocus vs blackwood, and definitely, (to my ear), not as radical as the difference between Blackwood and Boxwood. And again, the differences in tone are largely (but not completely) neutralized when fully lined headjoints are employed. I still say most people would not be able to tell, say 4 olwell nicholsons made from different woods and delrin, in a blind listening if the headjoints were all fully lined. Unlined I believe people hear the differences more. Also depends on who’s playing the flute as to how much difference one will hear.
But too much babble, I’m off to enjoy my flutes, both wood and delrin, by playing them.
Loren
P.S. And David, I shall endeavor to make that polymer flute you speak of one day, and I shall charge you a pretty penny for it when the time comes 
David/Julia D - just heard from Turlach…he’s still playing the ebonite Chappell. It’s allegedly back from someone’s shop - shinier and better sealed than ever.
Eric