Does anyone know why the Cnat thumbhole (and RH1 Bb touch) never became widely used on simple system flutes? Are there any significant examples of antique simple system flutes that have one?
Philip Bate’s book made me wonder. On p98 he’s talking about some wacky idea by Ribock in 1782 to add a second closed key for Cnat next to the Bb on the LH thumb. That being too awkward, it makes sense that because the Bb thumb key was already in wide use, that the thumbhole wasn’t practical and finally the long Cnat key was developed. Later (p226) he goes on to discuss Gottfried Weber and his idea in 1828, which also never caught on presumably because of the awkwardness of it in relation to Bb again, to have a Cnat key or hole under the thumb.
So, the next question is, not having the book handy, was it Boehm that invented the modern Bb trill touch? I guess I’m just surprised that nobody else saw the practical advantages of having a Cnat thumbhole, reducing the keywork complexity, and a Bb key operated by the opposite hand for efficiency. Obviously with either system, one of the two notes has to be operated by the side of RH1. But having used both, the latter seems a lot easier to operate to me. Was it simply tradition, or a lack of development in the field of ergonomics at the time?
Of course, coming from a position of someone who doesn’t use Bb all that often on simple system flutes, Cnat obviously seems WAAAAY more important!
I dunno about the later stuff, but Quantz advises using the LH thumb as a support point. Lift it up and all hell breaks loose. I still can’t get my mind around a LH thumb Bb key.
As for the modern Bb trill touch (I assume RH index finger?), I’m not sure when Boehm would have developed it, but Monzani was definitely a promoter of it, from at least the late 1820’s.
I thought that it was a great idea. So much so that I ordered my McGee with one. It does take a little getting used to to start off, but now, it’s second nature, and I use it interchangably with the other c nat fingerings, depending on which suits the tune or passage best.
yeah, I was just re-reading a thread I posted on a while ago about it. Terry drilled a Cnat thumbhole in my first flute, a Tony Dixon, and I loved it. Having the extra option really opened up a lot of possibilities.
Ah yes.. the Quantz way of holding the flute. Tradition, then.
Are you taking the Monzani reference from a dated flute, or from a tutor? I know Rick Wilson has a book of his online, but I can’t access it from where I am now..
Because it neccessitates having your LH thumb down to the flute in a position that for many-if-not-most people is uncomfortable, if not unhealthy. The flute’s enough of an ergonomic nightmare as it is.
These were players who, with a simple system flute, were expected (and able) to play accidentals at a different pitch depending on whether they were rising or descending through the scale. Mechanically fixing the pitch of an accidental with a key was likely considered “dumbing down” by them.
If you haven’t already got a copy of Ardal Powell’s, “The Flute” it’s a fascinating (if somewhat dry) read.
My wife has a Monzani 9-key with the extra Bb touch from (IIRC) 1830 or a little earlier. The Monzani tutor on Rick Wilson’s site is quite interesting.
I think it really comes down to the fact that on flute there are perfectly usable fingerings for a good C-natural without using keys or thumbholes.
On whistle it makes more sense to have the thumbhole, as on whistles sometimes the cross-fingerings for C-natural don’t work as well; also, on whistle, a thumbhole doesn’t cause any particular problems in holding the instrument.
Interesting… I’ve found that with the c-nat thumbhole, my left hand hold on the flute is much more stable than without. Meaning that by putting my thumb in a specific place on the flute every time, my other fingers naturally fall over the holes. With the two flutes I was playing before I got this one, I had (beginner’s i’m sure) problems with repeatablilty of the left hand placement. A side effect of this is that my hand doesn’t fatigue nearly as quickly as it did before. Some of this may have to do with the location of the thumb hole relative to the placement of the other toneholes. On my flute, if you look down the flute from the embouchure and have the regular holes at 12:00, then the thumbhole falls somewhere around 4:30 or so. This makes for a very natural feeling hold on the flute, but still allows me to either lift the thumb or rock it up for a bend if needed.
I feel that this is a very useful option, especially on a keyless flute, although on a keyed flute it may or may not be as useful. Perhaps sometime I’ll progress to the point that I’ll need keys, and can find out then.
I agree with the guy with a nail in his nose. I have a Cnat thumbhole on my flute, and I keep it covered with tape. My thumb doesn’t naturally fall in a comfortable position to cover the hole, so I use the cross-fingered C natural. I might add that, as a maker of simple-system, keyless flutes, I do get requests for a Cnat thumbhole occassionally from accomplished players. Also, I get requests from less-knowledgeable players for me to move the postion of the Cnat thumbhole (up or down the flute) so that it is more comfortable for them to cover. It would be very nice if we could just move the finger holes anywhere we wanted them so that they would be more comfortable to cover, but there are limits imposed by mathematics of the musical scale.
Thanks for the links and info. Over the past year or so I’ve slowly been working my way through a couple of the older books (like Philip Bate’s). I’m just at the end of the chapter on the 18th century moving into the 19th and it mentions several times the vehement opposition people had to adding more and more keys. With all the “inventions” that came and went in the late 17th and early 18th centuries, I guess it wouldn’t be surprising that the commonly accepted items (like the Bb thumb key) simply remained.
The more I cross-finger on the flute, the more I find keys distracting. (And I grew up playing the clarinet and have never been able to find my way around a recorder.) I also like the ability to bend notes and to have fingering options depending on the mechanics of the phrase and the intonation desired. Yes, trill keys are very nice – I’m amazed that anyone can trill from Bflat to A or Eflat to F on a traverso. But I think that something was lost when all them keys were added to flutes. I don’t consider it better or worse, just different.
I hate that the Bb is left thumb on most simple system flutes. The right hand touch makes playing a Bb so much easier. My next keyed flute will have a right hand touch Bb…Jon…if you are listening.
I’ve done several C thumbholes, and it’s no problem putting them where they’re most comfortable. The problem is, to get them really high up the flute (higher than I prefer), they have to be so small that the tone suffers badly. I’m not using one on my personal PVC, simply because my wooden flutes don’t have them, and I get confused enough.
For extra keys, I’d go for a RH Bb key, just like saxophone and clarinet. Probably not worth the bother, though.
I had Chris Abell retrofit my three Abell whistles (D, C, and A) with them (he’ll do it for free if done when first made, but I had to send mine back later).
I had Maurice Reviol (as well as Terry McGee on my previous flute), add it to my wooden flute.
I wouldn’t go back to not wanting it.
They’re all quite comfortable and easy to leave covered when cross fingering the Cn. But they allow for a dead-on Cn (or much more so than the cross fingered version - which I still opt to use a lot, depending upon context and sound desired), and I find are essential for me for a perfect-sounding high register Cn.
