"Which whistle?" questions from a recorder convert

Whistle
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Hi there. I’ve been playing mostly English and Scandi folk music on recorder for around a decade, but I’ve always been a bit frustrated with the instrument, and a couple of months ago decided to jump ship. I’m really loving the whistle for all sorts of reasons.

I borrowed a couple of whistles from friends to help me decide if this was serious, and now I’m looking to get my own. The borrowed whistles are a Sustato in high C, a Shaw in high D, and a beat-up Shaw in low D.

What I’ve found from these is:

  • I enjoy playing the Sustato the most, except it’s a bit ear-splitting at the top, and has a slightly “rough” sound to it.
  • I love the sound of a low whistle in general, and I’d really like to get one (as well as a high D), but the Shaw is a bit too bent at the bottom to play easily, and it requires much more breath than I’ve got currently, which I don’t think is entirely due to the damage to the instrument.
  • Both the Shaws sound really breathy, which isn’t the sound I’m aiming for - I’d prefer something reasonably “pure”.
  • Both the Shaws have a very sharp Cnat, which I don’t like at all. It’s close to unplayable really, and it made me wonder if it would be better for me to learn to half-hole the Cnat.
  • Even the Sustato sounds like the the Cnat can go sharp if I “push” the note too much, although it’s easier to compensate on that instrument by adding the first finger of my lower hand. Half-holing also seems much easier to me on the Sustato, if I use “pipers fingering” (which is natural to me, as I play Border Pipes too).

So I’m wondering if this all means I should start with a high D whistle with a cylindrical bore like the Sustato, but perhaps in metal? Brass would give me the warmest, purest tone, perhaps? Any suggestions for a good whistle with these characteristics - broadly similar to a Sustato, but with a gentler, purer sound?

As for a low D, I’m quite tempted by an MK, for around £200. Feels perhaps a bit risky, jumping straight into such a pro instrument though. Should I “cut my teeth” on a High D first? Or maybe start with a cheaper Low D?

And with C natural (2nd and 3rd fingers of top hand down) - is this commonly sharp on whistles? Do the smart/fussy players use a half-holed Cnat instead? Or is it quite possible to get an instrument with a perfect and reliable C natural?

Thanks so much in advance for any advice.
Best wishes,
Mark.

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And with C natural (2nd and 3rd fingers of top hand down) - is this commonly sharp on whistles? Do the smart/fussy players use a half-holed Cnat instead? Or is it quite possible to get an instrument with a perfect and reliable C natural?

The old ever returning discussion: it depends on what you’re aiming for. You need to define ‘in tune’ before asking about ‘sharp’. Some fussy players would even aim for a C considerably sharp from equal temperament to consider it in tune. It’s all in the context and it’s up to the player to hit the right pitch suitable for the occasion.

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Welcome!

As a recorder convert, it’s perhaps not that surprising that you prefer a Susato to a Shaw. However, most of the cheap high D whistles sound very different to either of these two options though, so I think it might be worth trying out a straight bore cheap high D. Something like a Generation, or a Feadog, or a Dixon trad for a more traditional whistle sound (whatever that is!) You can also try and tame your Susato with an “O-ring tweak” (do a search of the archives to see what I’m on about).

On the low whistle, the Shaw is quite distinctive/unusual too - you won’t find many other conical bore low D whistles.

C natural - try different fingerings. Half-holing is a difficult skill to perfect. Some people like a whistle with an extra hole underneath (like a recorder). I’ve also tried taping over half the top hole for tunes without any C#s. But that’s cheating :wink:

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Thanks, both. I’d done some searching already, but you’ve given me some good terms to search more specifically on.

Regards C natural, what I’m aiming for is a C natural that sounds in tune when I’m playing in G major on a D whistle. It seems to me the Shaw C naturals are out of tune by even or equal tempered standards. I’ll measure them later. All this said, I’m aware that my own technique (or lack of it!) could be making the instruments do strange things :slight_smile:

From what you’ve said though, Gumby, it seems this is an area where there is variance between whistles, and perhaps it’s something to discuss with the whistle maker to get something that suits my preference?

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Exactly what I was going to say. Those cheap cylindrical whistles are more “usual” regarding sound and behaviour; and the Feadóg is probably the least breathy. Most of them have a decent c nat with oxx ooo fingering. BTW, Shaws require oxx xxo, and that’s still a bit sharp for my liking.

I’d suggest to get such a cheapie in any case, because that’s what other whistles are usually being compared with.

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Will do! I’ve just ordered myself a Feadóg Pro high D :slight_smile:

This is great advice, I’ll try that, encouraged by knowing it’s not “wrong” :slight_smile:

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From what you’ve said though, Gumby, it seems this is an area where there is variance between whistles, and perhaps it’s something to discuss with the whistle maker to get something that suits my preference?

I am not sure how many whisltemakers are set up to vary their voicing but it’s worth speaking about it.

What I was really getting at is that as a player you have control over the pitch of your Cnat (and other notes as well ofcourse, to some extend). C can take different fingerings and a variation of breathpressure to adjust the pitch. And what pitch you’re looking for really depends on the tuning system your ear is accustomed to. So there’s a degree of variation of what can be called in tune.

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As another of many who matriculated from recorder to whistle I can say without question that you will likely be expecting far too much precision from a whistle with the exception of a very few high-end makers.

Get an inexpensive high D whistle from a good maker, like a Feadog Pro or a Walton’s Little Black or one of Jerry Freeman’s tweaked Generations, Bluebird or Mellow Dog. There are others too, these are examples.

If you have the budget for it, there are makers who will work with you to get the tuning you’re looking for. But as others have said, this standard is unnecessary for our world FWIW.

Good luck and welcome,
ecohawk

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Thanks again. You’ve all given me loads to think about and explore, and it’s a heady feeling learning new things about this instrument I’m falling in love with.

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I’m NOT a converted recorder player- I came to whistle via highland pipes > uilleann pipes > irish flute > whistle- but I’ve spent a large amount of time with recorder players, both in attendance at workshops I’m teaching, and at various gigs over the years.

They usually are attracted to different things in a whistle than ‘pure’ Irish whistleplayers are. They do often like Susatos, not surprising, because Susato uses the same heads for their recorders and whistles.

I’ve often found that ‘legit’ players (coming from formal backgrounds, playing recorder, or Boehm flute, or other woodwinds) really like Burke whistles. The intonation is great, the tone is clean and pure, and the voicing is butter-smooth across the range. On many occasions I’ve been at gigs where a ‘legit’ woodwind guy or ‘reed guy’ who ‘doubles’ pulls out a big roll of Burkes in every chromatic key.

BTW it’s often easy to spot converted recorder players because they either 1) move their thumb on and off the back of the whistle even though there’s no hole there, or 2) get their whistles made with thumbholes on them. Hard, sometimes, to wean them off the thumb thing. Ditto with converted bassoon players and Highland pipers. Odd that nearly every uilleann piper on earth also plays whistle, and even though the uilleann pipes have a thumbhole, I’ve never seen an uilleann piper move his thumb on and off while playing whistle.

Low Ds don’t have to ‘take a lot of breath’. The MK is extremely air-efficient, and simultaneously takes less air and puts out more volume than other Low Ds.

Anyhow I would recommend that you at least try a Burke ‘session bore’ high D. It’s got the full round sound in the low range that recorder players usually like. You can get them in aluminum for a brighter tone, or brass for a darker tone. The Burke narrow-bore high D, in brass, is closer to a classic whistle (Generation) in performance, with some low-octave volume sacrificed to gain a sweeter 2nd octave.

As far as the mass-produced inexpensive whistles go, usually people from ‘legit’ backgrounds don’t care for them much. Also, the quality control is lax to nonexistent and you might have to play dozens of ‘cheapies’ to find a really good one. The best way around this is to get a Jerry Freeman ‘tweaked’ Generation or Feadog. His ‘tweaks’ magically fix all the intonation problems and create a more full low range. I have a Freeman Generation Bb and Eb and both play great. I recommend that you at least try a Freeman tweaked Feadog D, a very nice whistle in my opinion.

About the crossfingered C natural, traditionally made whistles have the C# hole made so that C# is a bit on the flat side (at least as far as Equal Temperament goes) and the crossfingered C natural

oxx oox

or

oxx xox

is in tune using normal breath.

Traditional players are used to not overblowing C natural, and giving C# a bit of an extra push to bring it up to pitch.

Players coming from ‘legit’ backgrounds often insist on having the top fingerhole made bigger so that C# is in tune to Equal Temperament using ordinary breath, which makes the crossfingered C natural too sharp unless non-traditional fingerings are used. I don’t care for this approach at all. If I have to play a whistle made like that I’ll put tape over that top hole to bring the pitch down.

In Just Intonation, which is how the pipes are tuned, C# is a bit lower and C natural is a bit higher than those notes are in ET.

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Thank you :slight_smile:

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+1 on Jerry Freeman’s whistles. Excellent whistles at a great price. I also play recorder (Yamaha 300 series) and, while I have collected various (numerous? too many?) whistles over the years, I keep going back to Jerry’s whistles for most everything. Most of his whistles seem to like OXX XOX for an equal temperament Cnat.