Yeah, wow. I guess I’ve never thought too much about marriage before, because that’s some heavy stuff. I couldn’t imagine being married. I suppose it’s probably a wonderful feeling, but I’ll be honest, the idea scares me a little. A lot.
There’s something at the core of what’s bothering me
and maybe I can express it.
There’s the feeling, maybe unwarranted but it’s there,
that some people represent gays as belonging to
another species, so OTHER that ordinary human
concerns don’t apply. ,
Coming to terms with one’s homo-
sexuality trumps every other human concern.
There’s the presumption that male homosexuals
can’t love women, that female homosexuals can’t
love men.
My wife graduated highschool with about ten close
friends, almost all of whom are homosexuals,
and they have been part of my life for twenty years,
including driving people to the physician for check ups
cause they’re HIV positive, etc. I don’t pretend to
understand homosexuality or know what it’s like
to be gay and so I don’t mean to minimize what
people go through in a society that
forbade it. I saw a lot of this in the 50s and
it was nasty.
At the end of the day, though, I figure we’re all in it
together, things aren’t as different between us as what
we have in common. I figure that male homosexuals
and male heterosexuals have more in common than
not, namely, the maniacal male-sex-drive engineered
by evolution not to be satisfied with one partner. You want
problems in marriage? That will do the job just fine.
I don’t see why sexual orientation places one outside
normal human bounds of family and love and responsibility.
It’s too bad people have had to go through all this
bullshite, but you know, nobody gets to be a special
case. Coming to terms with one’s sexual identity is
important but it isn’t the most important thing,
it doesn’t exempt one from ordinary responsibilities,
it doesn’t make one a law unto oneself.
As in: ‘I’m leaving. I have to come to terms with
my sexual identity.’
I’m sure Congratulations is right–there are going to
be people who may, because of these issues, really
have to leave a marriage. And sure Cranberry’s post
is innocent and well meant. But it’s hard for me not
to feel there’s a presumption that these issues trump too
many other concerns and responsibilities, and I don’t believe it.
There’s a deeper issue here. If our culture were more accepting of homosexuality, homosexuals could feel free to discover their preference in the earlier years of their sexual awakening, rather than figuring it out after years of marriage to someone of the opposite sex.
I know people who were married with the words “until the flame no longer burns or as long as our love shall last,” which means they can and will end the marriage when that happens. It’s all above-the-table.
I agree completely, but I’m forced to file it under “Things That Should Be.” For now, when sexuality (in general, but especially homosexuality) is forced into suppression until one is past the Point of No Return, when one is finally capable of exploring it, one feels a strong sense of responsibility to explore it. And yes, it’s a simplistic thing–it’s an immature thing–to do, but it’s something that should have been done when one was immature. It’s society at large that forces these immature (but necessary, I feel) things onto a mature person.
In a similar way, I think this is why college-aged gays are so apt to “act the part.” When you’ve spent all of middle- and high-school just trying not to be gay, and when you get to college and it’s suddenly okay to be gay, it’s very, very tempting to wear three-inch white belts and tight capri pants and cross your legs at the knee and speak with a lisp and call everyone “gurl.” It garners a real community of people who have gone through all the same things you have, and are doing all the things you think you’re supposed to do. I’ve found it very difficult to make friends with the gays at my school because I don’t act like that. I guess I’m just not fabulous enough.
But anyway, it’s the same idea, I suppose, just less extreme. I think this kind of thing (the marriage thing, anyway) is gradually, if slowly, on its way out. When kids are able to come out in middle school, or even before, they’re less likely to marry someone out of a sense of “propriety” and “normalcy.” So there’s that. Maybe one day we can all be people.
/shrug
I think that’s Going Steady.
Thanks, Congratulations. Well said.
Thanks Cran..that’s exactly the point I was making. Not everyone thinks of marriage as a life-long commitment ordained by God. Some people see it as a societal convention that lasts as long as it lasts. And not every religion demands a life-long commitment either.
And if there are children from the union?
I’m pretty sure every state in the union has provisions for the division of property and the raising of children in the event of a divorce.
Collecting child support from a dead beat parent wasn’t much of a priority for the state when I was raising two kids by myself,
but money wasn’t the real issue.
I never had to say a word bad about my children’s father. The example set by his actions were enough. Its hard to ignore the fact that one of your parents is rejecting you.
My daughter’s in-laws can’t figure out why she refuses to talk about her father.
My son quit his job and became a stay at home parent when he finally decided to become a parent.
That’s a hard story. My parents were divorced, and my father always was and still is of no account. But do you think things would have been better had you been forced to stay married? I can’t imagine that they would. I’m not sure what you’re getting at in the context of this thread.
He didn’t have to walk away from his children.
Well, actually he didn’t walk far. Yes, he did disappear for the first year. But then, as a part of the divorce settlement I forced him to supply his children with a telephone number he could be reached at so they could call him if they wanted to.
Eventually he married a lady who lived across the alley from us who is White like him but has 3 biracial children from an earlier relationship.
That’s not to say the relationship between my children and their father then improved. My son then had the pleasure to be in the same class room with his father’s new step son and hear about what a great dad his dead beat father was.
Here’s the thing. My ex managed to be an attentive parent to his three step children, but for some reason he also felt he was justified to reject his own flesh and blood. They were his old life and then he had a new life?
When a marriage fails are either parent justified to desert the children of the union?
I don’t think the conversation was about deserting kids. I think it was about divorce. It’s possible to get a divorce without deserting kids.
Right…As sad as your story is Hyldemoer, it’s a story about human failing, not a story about the horrors of divorce. You can still be married and spend virtually no time with your kids.
This is true.
Really?
I thought the conversation was about discovering one’s true identity and then if they had a right to drop their old life while going off to pursue the new life.
My daughter lives in a unincorporated area right next to a forest preserve. Out in front of her house is a sign that says its illegal to abandon pets in the neighborhood and states the fine for doing so.
That doesn’t stop people from driving up, opening their car door, throwing out the dog or cat that no longer fits their lifestyle, and then just driving away.
My daughter tells me that when she first moved in there were always collarless dogs eating out of her dumpster and once she counted a dozen cats in her back yard.
Then a coyote moved into the neighborhood.
I think that’s your spin on it, colored by your past. No one here ever said it was alright to run away, totally forget your old life, ignore your kids, and just totally start over as if you had never been married if you come out as gay when you’re married. Lets remember the original topic here. I’m sorry your ex was such a jerk. But that really has nothing to do with his sexual orientation OR divorce.
Or are you trying to say that everyone, gay or not, who gets divorced abandons their kids? Are you trying to say that if someone realizes they’re gay, they should not be allowed to be divorced? Are you saying divorce is never an option? Are you saying if someone in the family is a jerk, well, it’s still better to stay married? Was your ex gay?
I still don’t get what your point is as relates to this thread… Because what I’m hearing is “my ex was a jerk and a bad father and I want to rant about it.” Those things suck…but really ultimately have nothing to do with couples who come out of the closet while married. Other than complaining about your ex, and ocmplaining about fathers who abandon their kids (which sucks) I’m not sure what position you’re advocating in this conversation.
If you’re advocating that parents shouldn’t abandon their kids, I think everyone here already agrees with you.
I’m confused, and I’m reading back over the posts to see if I can figure out how the ethnicity of the people involved is relevant, but I’m not finding the reference. Sorry, not trying to be confrontational, just trying to get what your point is.
I wrote this;
'What marriage really does is make someone your closest
family, and it does it in a way where you can sleep with
him/her without it being incest.
I don’t think anybody has any real doubts that this is true–
marriage creates voluntarily a fundamental family bond.
In this regard it’s like having a child–you no longer come
first, being ‘true to yourself’ is no longer your highest
priority. If this isn’t for you–and there is no reason
why it should be–better not to marry.’
Hyldemoer is affirming it, some of you are denying it.
I think we all agree divorce should be possible.
The question is what the divorce is from. Is it
the breaking of a fundamental family bond?
She and I say yes.
Marriage isn’t really a matter of vows. My wife
and I were married by a Justice of the Peace.
No vows. But we became husband and wife, fundamental
family. As KO put it later: ‘We’re fixed.’ It’s deeper and
more secure than love, which is why there can be so
much love in it.
‘I’ll stay as long as I love you,
until I really want to try something else…’ Some vow!
That doesn’t create family. That’s Going Steady.
I think Hyldemoer and I have described what
marriage has traditionally been–and it’s no accident
that the relationship was meant to be the platform
for child rearing. That needs to be more stable and
secure than what you get when you promise to
stay together ‘as long as the flame is alive,’
that is, as long as you want to.
So her ex-s behaviour is objectionable because
he didn’t treat her and her kids like his family.
‘Sally I need to tell you something.
Daddy won’t be living with us anymore.’
'Why not, Mommy? Did I do something wrong?
No, dear, of course not.
Doesn’t he love us?
Of course he does. And he’ll see you every
weekend. He wants to try something new.’
What’s wrong with doing it to your child
is a good deal of what’s wrong with doing it
to your wife/husband. The name of the game is
that you’re getting into something where
other people’s happiness matters more than
your own.
as someone who has gone through a divorce (and not because of gay issues) y’all do realize there are more reasons than “because I want to try something new” to be divorced.
And that some kids realize they are better for the divorce, even though they love both of the parents equally.