Joni Mitchell (no relation to Pat) said it best, back in the 1960s:
“C is a happenin’ key.”
Joni Mitchell (no relation to Pat) said it best, back in the 1960s:
“C is a happenin’ key.”
Tony,
How many sets do you have?
one for each room in your house
by the looks of it,
odviously your not a poor piper
I don’t
mind pipes in the key of C, I quite like some of the stuff by Finbar Fury
his pipes are in the same key, I like his version of the Fox Chase on
one of his earlier albums, Nice, all the best with the set. ![]()
Pardon my extreme ignorance… I snuck over here from the whistle forum. Ulleann pipes have been a dream of mine ever since I picked up the whistle 5 years ago - someday I’ll be rich. In the mean time however, I’m gleaning info as I go along…
What is “concert” pitch? and I’m assuming that when you all speak of C and D and C#, etc you are speaking of diatonic (major) scales, correct? So are we speaking of musician subjective preference or is there a true difference in sound between the keys (when I play piano or guitar and transpose a song, the song sounds exactly the same, just a bit higher or lower, hense my confusion).
Barak
Barak,
UPs have been around for a long time, and through their history, different makers have made their sets tuned to various keys, e.g. B, C, C#, D, or sometimes somewhere in between, based on earlier concepts of what constituted standard pitch. Older sets were made with smaller bores and smaller tone holes and have a distinct sound.
When A=440Hz was accepted as an international standard in the mid 20th century, sets that were tuned to D (or close to it) were determined to be in “concert” pitch. Sets that had been tuned to older standards for D or C were all called “flat sets”, as they are no longer near what we would call concert D today.
Also, in the late 19th/early 20th century, the need for louder pipes drove the creation of wider bores and larger tone holes. The difference in the timbre is significant to anyone with an ear for pipes. Notice I didn’t say better or worse, just different. Some prefer the older, narrow bore sound. Some prefer the newer sound.
I like both, but then, I’m an addict. ![]()
djm
Barak,
To summarize DJM’s excellent reply, when the UP crowd talks about “concert pitch” pipes, it generally refers to wide-bore pipes pitched in D major.
Now start yourself a pipe fund; you’ll be surprized how quickly you can put together the funds if you make a plan and stick to it.
Good luck!
No E
I had heard that the late 19th century references to the Taylor Bros. innovation of the large bore pipes being refered to as “concert sets”, was for the increase in loudness needed to fill the concert halls in America. This is different than “concert pitch”. The big bore sets became all the rage, resulting in rereaming and hot poker treatments to many existing old sets, ruining many of them. The old set were not refered to in pitches, this is a modern innovation. Hence we call the bell note of any chanter, D. Willie Rousome made some larger bored pipes in pitches lower than D. Two camps have formed, those favoring the old narrow bores with their rich overtones and parlor volumes, and the big bore afficiandos of sets with more ballsy tone. Many appreciate both types. Al Purcell used to refer to Taylor pipes as “sharp sets”. This, and flat sets, refer to pitch. Now we are refering more accurately to narrow bore, wide bore and pitch, ie. B, C, D etc. now that we have an A=440cps standard. Some orchestras are raising their pitch standard to A=442cps. Does this mean a shift in pitch for UP as well? I heard Liam O’Flynn got a C chanter from K&Q set up at A=442. Stay “tuned”…
Ted
Ted,
I have a narrow bore D chanter pitch at 443, some of the older
chanters are all over the place in their keys, Willie Rowsome
may have made some wide bore flat chanters but they were nothing
like the size of the concert D size bores of 14.28mm and some even
bigger, correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t Willie Clancy play one of
thee’s big bore concert D sets by the Taylor Brothers of Philadelphia?
certainly was a nice sounding set, but in the concert hall thee pipes
were played with other instruments not just a fiddle which had been
the case with the flat sets which limited there use. ![]()
I recall a reference to flutes written in the 19th century, I think, that used the terms flat, concert, and sharp pitch. I’d assume the Taylors picked this terminology up and used it with their customers and students; or did Coyne make concert pitch stuff too…? A music dictionary from the 18th century, Tansur’s, refers in its listing for bagpipe, to the various elements, including “the chanter, usually about 15 inches in length; and they make a fine harmony, especially with a flat chanter, in the D pitch.” It doens’t specify any kind of bagpipe here.
Hi Stew,
I did not mean that the Willie flat sets were anything like the big bore D cannons, just that there were some flat sets made with larger than the older narrow bores. I agree, the choice of bores is a lot in how it is going to be used. With amplification this is less of a consideration. Old pipes were mainly solo instruments with narrow bores better in the parlour and larger bores better for the street or in a noisy pub. Both seem to have their followings.
Ted
Eh… B… did I say that already? ![]()
PD.
That’s your third vote for B, Patrick… By the way, what was the result when you ran a similar poll on your web site? I would bet it was B, only coz I prefer B myself.
Ken
Hi Ken,
Here is a link to the results of the Quizes I ran on my site:
http://www.concentric.net/~pdarcy/quizlet_15.html
Some interseting topics on there too could be aired out here?
Patrick.
Pat,
I guess I missed that one. To tell the truth, there’s so much stuff crammed together on your web site that I’ve never been able to make my way through it all (that’s meant as a good thing). Some interesting results and opinions in your poll. Why don’t you start a new thread and give your interpretation of the results. That should get some discussion going. ![]()
Do RTE mind you rebroadcasting their radio shows? Are the shows you cover always about trad music, or are you just picking out the ones that include piping specifically?
Thx,
djm
Perfect pitch for me is when you throw an accordian in the garbage and it lands on a banjo.
Couldn’t resist.
Cheers,
Virgil
Or an F-type mandolin… ![]()
Pat, aren’t they all F’g mandolins? ![]()
djm
Hi djm,
I don’t know what RTE think of me archiving their shows. But if I don’t then all this great piping and interviews are lost to the vaults of RTE, if indeed they archive these shows themselves??? If they did then I wouldn’t have to. I basically sift through their shows for piping related stuff. It hass amassed a nice little collection at this point. If anyone has any ideas about storing so many audio files for free please let me know.
Loads of people record their radio programmes onto tape so I don’t see this as any different except for the fact that it’s available to the piping community and anyone else mad enough to find it in my site.
Patrick.
Patrick, please don’t think I’m finding fault or trying to rock the boat regarding the broadcasts.
On the contrary, I greatly appreciate you making this stuff available. The reasons I was asking are that a). I am curious if there is even more such available as regards the recorded broadcasts, and b). I’m wondering if I should bother finding and recording these shows myself, or are they seldom piping-oriented?
As regards RTE’s archives, by all accounts they are vast, and little to no effort is being made to make them available. One RTE video, “Come West Along the Road”, is just a hint of what they have tucked away. Its infuriating to think there may be a whole truckload of Ennis recordings most of us have never heard before hidden in some warehouse. Or even better, video of him playing so we could watch for technique!
Anyway, please keep up the good work. I appreciate it very much!
Thx,
djm
Hi djm,
Not at all.. I’m just rambling. Maybe one in ten shows will have a bit of piping, if that. I have also gotten some excellent piping on Maití Joe MacShéamais’ show Lán a’ Mhála on Radio na Gaeltachta. One in particular with Emmett Gill doing some lovely playing.
PD.
Don’t get me started.
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