So was it aesthetics they were judging also, thats bad craic.
Im glad the student got there in the end though.
It goes to show with anything, that theres a mob that insist you have to have gucci equipment or instruments (im not saying humphrey isn’t good).
I think the point was not just judging by equipment, but not recognising Humphrey as Humphrey.
There is an added bit of irony, perhaps, in the fact I have seen and photographed the adjudicator in question (a lovely and wellknown fluteplayer and resesrcher) playing a Generation whistle at a public engagement.
I’ve heard about the Comhaltas Sindt thing. It’s absurd but not unexpected. As they say “competition breeds conformity”.
A dancer wearing the sort of costume popular a decade ago wouldn’t have a chance.
I’ve told the story of a friend who, when he reached the highest level of solo Highland piping competition, was dismayed to finish last in every contest regardless of how the various contestants played. After several such contests a judge wrote on his scoresheet “buy a Naill”.
Indeed he was the only piper not playing a Naill chanter, which was all the go at that time. He did what must be done, and bought a Naill.
At the next contest, and those which followed, he finished in the middle of the pack.
In the Pipe Band world optics are huge. I’ve said, and proven it, that experienced Highland pipers can accurately guess a band’s playing level at sight. The judges pretty much know what a band will sound like, and what music they will play, the moment they lay eyes on the band.
A little late to the discussion, but IIRC even Sindt himself has acknowledged that the cross-fingered C natural OXXOOO is sharp, and recommends half-holing instead. The Killarney is fine with the cross-fingering.
Myself, I’ve consistently used mostly Susatos, but like keeping up with developments.
Blindfold the judges and see what happens.
“Blindfold the judges and see what happens.” - I believe the near-equivalent of that happens in Scottish accordion competitions, where competitors play behind a screen separated from the adjudicator. I’m not even sure that the competitors’ names are announced. Can’t remember where I heard that, and I do admit, I’ve never been to one of those competitions. I can see the merits of it.
I went to put some business the way of our local traditional music supplier - “Celtic Chords” in Stonehaven [ check the website ]. Peter has recently bought in some of the Glenluce whistles, and asked me to try one. I thought the sound was good across the 2 octaves, quite loud, but a bit thick-set and definitely comparitively heavy compared to any other whistle I’ve ever played, even a Burke. The soprano D is selling at £55, which is cheaper than the other Sindt clones I’m aware of.
These are observations, not recommendations.
If anyone is able to support Peter’s business in any way, I’d be delighted.
In accordion competitions they should give the judges earplugs!
Your account is interesting and fairly encouraging about the quality of these clones, Kenny. A few markets (ukuleles, for example), have some really stellar low-cost options now thanks to some of the same processes. Plenty of dreck and crap as well, but some nice instruments for not that much.
I’m also not surprised that it’s a loud whistle. I’ve always figured that a louder/“session” Sindt clone would sell well, given the popularity of other “session” whistles. Not sure how I’d feel personally; volume is IMO overrated in a whistle and the loud ones tend to be stiff. But I’d bet that a louder version of the Sindt design would be a hit.
I’m also not surprised that it’s a loud whistle. I’ve always figured that a louder/“session” Sindt clone would sell well, given the popularity of other “session” whistles. Not sure how I’d feel personally; volume is IMO overrated in a whistle and the loud ones tend to be stiff. But I’d bet that a louder version of the Sindt design would be a hit.
It’s a bit of an arms race isn’t it?
I think volume is overrated. If things are too loud to hear yourself think, I usually feel I shouldn’t be there.
With regards to the volume of the Sindt: I think it’s well loud enough for most situations I want to be in. Some fifteen years ago I was playing in Friel’s with the regulars. It seemed noisy between the drinkers and the load of musicians in a small room. At some point Marion McCarthy, who was sitting opposite commented I was playing a lovely sounding whistle. She had a go and surprised me how well the whistle carried through the din. I certainly heard it much better across the room than I heard myself playing. Which made me realise it’s very easy to underestimate how well you can be heard. A louder whistle in that setting would have been like shouting over everybody else.
Hi Kenny
The cheapest Sindt clones are the Mullan whistles from Erne Music Supplies. The D is £35 plus postage. (they are currently out of stock of the D but not the C and Bb).
David
The D is £35 plus postage.
It sounds very attractive, as long as you are buying from within the UK. Unfortunately once vat and extortionate postage are added it’s no longer cheap buying outside the UK (with the Bb landing at £89 in total when buying through ebay, from Ireland. At the current rate that is slightly more than a Killarney Bb).
My son was in Enniskillen a while ago, I asked him to have a look, and perhaps get me a Bb, but it happened to be the day of the centenary of NI and the different sectarian flag displays somehow put him off lingering in the town for long. Which was probably just as well as I really don’t need a Bb. Or any other whistle, for that matter.
Hi Davy - hope all is well with you in the “Wild West”. Hadn’t come across Mullan whistles before. I think the last session I was in with you was at Girvan, around 10 years ago now, which was so noisy I gave up on the flute and played a Tony Dixon plastic “D” whistle, which was certainly heard. I agree absolutely with Mr. Gumby about volume. The Sindt whistles I’ve had for a good few years now are as loud as I would ever need for most sessions.
Unfortunately, in my own experience, the players who play the loudest whistles are usually the players you wouldn’t want to hear in the first place [ as I think on that, that tends to be applicable to any instrument ].
A friend of mine once remarked to such a whistle player, asking him to tone it down a bit as the volume was melting the wax in his ears 
. [ Apologies if that image disgusts anyone - Scottish humour ].
As a PS - Peter did also have these Glenluce whistles in the keys of Bb and A, but I didn’t want him to have to put his whole stock in quarantine for the duration, so didn’t try them.
Have patience: Sindt and Killarney are practically identical, but my ear hears them very different.
I’m playing a 'Wild" clone from McNeela and I really enjoy it. My experience has been that an affordable clone gets you a much greater improvement-per-dollar over a $10 injection molded job than a high end whistle does over the affordable clone. It’s a bit like guitars, everyone can immediately tell the difference between a $200 starter instrument and a solid $700-$1000 workhorse. Far fewer people will be able to identify the difference in sound or feel between that workhorse and an exorbitant $2500 guitar. The higher end you go, you start to find diminishing returns for your buck. For everyone but the most professional musicians, a middle of the road utilitarian instrument is usually as much as they will ever need.
I’d posit that, for a high level player, those “diminishing returns” are the subtleties that may make a vast difference. And, as you say, for the amateur who plays simply for fun the “middle of the road” instrument is, indeed, all he/she will ever need. However, it may not be all he/she will ever want.
In my case, I’ve lucked into a couple of flutes that I can only aspire to playing to their fullest capacity—but I definitely won’t trade down to something I’m more worthy of.
Best wishes.
Steve
I fully agree with you Steve, nuance and range of expression. However, am still not convinced this fully applies to whistles. The finest whistle music I have heard was played on those cheap mass produced instruments and although there’s a greater variety of instruments around these days, the cheap ones are still used by the finest players alongside more expensive instruments.
FWIW, while they give me a different tone I don’t feel my Sindts or Killarneys give me greater playability over my Generations and my go to whistles still are Ciliian O Briain’s improved ones and I would happily play any of the above in any context.
While I agree with Rykirk’s guitar analogy for guitars and most other instruments, whistles have a few weird grey areas that make it work much less. Being manufacturing process, and that whistles have a fixed setup.
A 6 string guitar is a 6 string guitar. Some have better sounding materials, electronics, betting tuning pegs, look better, etc. You can then set up the guitar to play how you want, with different strings, tunings, string height, etc. A mid tier guitar is noticeably nicer than a super cheap amazon one that tries to fit in everything, but all low quality. Top end ones may have better materials but its in places that matter less, more electronics, etc.
Whistles its a lot more complicated. Injection molding a mouthpiece costs a few cents in plastic (after spending possibly thousands to make the mold). And a well designed molded mouthpiece isn’t any worse than a hand made one. But a hand made whistle made in someone’s workshop costs significantly more from labor time. So its hard to compare a $10 whistle as only $10 vs a hand made makers $300. Because the way the $10 was made is so much more efficient.
And on whistle setup, how a person wants a whistle to play varies heavily, and a maker cant make a whistle everyone will like. This hurts the ability to say the top makers are truly ‘the best whistles’ because someone still might not like how it plays or sounds vs another. For my tastes, the top makers definitely manage to do the things I like (primarily for low whistles), making them worth my money over cheaper. But if I wanted the sound of a Gen that wouldn’t be the case.
The main thing hand made makers have is build quality, and consistency. While Nightingale and Thunderbird are fine, the build quality is worse than my more costly ones, you can tell they are more mass produced. The finger holes are noticeably sharper. I’ve heard people complain about chieftains having inconsistent tuning, tuning slides being too tight, etc. You wont get this on a reputable hand made one (I’m not saying these brands arent reputable, I more mean that the hand maker needs to be reputable, so that it doesnt include someone making a crap one haha).
Not always, but the top makers recipes generally earn their price tag. My Burke F just plays in tune easier than my thunderbird, and is much easier to play well. My thunderbird isnt not in tune. But the lowest 2 notes are really easy to blow sharp, and the top 3 notes break really flat and need a big push to be in tune. Reyburn and Burke just play in tune effortlessly.
My main beef with the cheepie whistles is theres no consistency. Theres been countless times that people on this forum have said to a new player ‘go to your local store and try all the generations and pick the best one’. This means the quality is not up to par. And I just cant say an instrument that can vary heavily in quality is as good as a maker who always sends out top quality tested instruments. My feadog tuning is horrific. My gen Bb tuning is ok. My sweet tone tuning is good. This variation isnt good. I cant confidently recommend these to a new player if I dont know what they are going to end up with. But a good one or a tweaked one, compete fine with more expensive ones.
What I would love is if they were to make a new model of generations and feadogs, with new mouthpiece models to come how people tweak them, and to up quality control to make sure the tuning and stuff is good. $30 a pop. Would effortlessly compete with top makers.
What I would love is if they were to make a new model of generations and feadogs, with new mouthpiece models to come how people tweak them, and to up quality control to make sure the tuning and stuff is good. $30 a pop. Would effortlessly compete with top makers.
Dream on. Injection moulding is a process that is to an extend flawed, no matter how good your design is. It will never yield the preciscion needed consistently. And that is fine, you can go into a shop, try a few and come out with a fine whistle for €8 although Covid is wreaking havoc on the selection process. Based on experience I would be reluctant to buy a whistle sight unseen.
Let’s clear up the misconception, again, that you have to try all Generations in a shop before you get a good one. You try them to get one that suits best, Most of them will be perfectly serviceable, if perhaps average, a few very nice and a few not so much. Last time I went into a shop (Custy’s) and tried the lot I found each one I tried fine.
After playing a large number of expensive modern whistles (some a thousand dollars) I still feel that the finest whistles are the very best Generations.
As I’ve said many times over the years, I had a crack at an unopened box straight from the factory of 24 Generation D’s.
There were two which played at the very highest level, easily on par with a Sindt or anything else you name.
And then a few that played well. And a broad mediocre middle. And a couple which were utterly unplayable, having no 2nd octave whatsoever, making only squeaking noises when you tried to overblow the low octave.
There seemed to be no quality control at all.
It made me wonder:
-
What if Generation ONLY sold those top two whistles, and binned the rest? They could probably sell them for $100 each, and gain a reputation as one of the world’s finest whistle makers.
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What if Generation ONLY sold the top ten whistles, and binned the rest? They could probably sell them for $40 each, and gain a reputation of a solid reliable whistle maker.
But no, Generation sends everything out the door, the superb and the unplayable alike, for a few dollars each, and has the reputation they deserve.
A perhaps fitting coda is when, shortly afterwards, a new student showed up with no whistle. I told him the music shop down the street sold Generations, and he zipped over there and bought a D. He didn’t try it, just grabbed one at random. It was superb. (I visited that shop fairly regularly and always played over the Generations they had to hand…in ten years I’d never found a good one there, in any key.)
One of the variables I was trying to suggest in an earlier comment it that the skill of the player enters into this discussion. I’ve heard folks say things like “Matt Malloy could play a garden hose and it would sound good and be in tune.” That doesn’t apply to the beginner. For someone starting out and has a problem, it’s often difficult for him/her to sort out whether it’s the whistle or the player. PanCelt’s student clearly lucked out in finding a gem in the bin. For others, I’ve always suggested a tweaked whistle (_e.g.,_Freeman or O’Briain, so, if there’s a problem, it’s not the whistle.
A skilled whistler can overcome, or at least “play around” problems with a cheaper whistle off the shelf. A beginner, perhaps not.
Best wishes.
Steve