Open strings can be played with double cuts, for example A{B}A{d}A, not unlike a cran. Alternatively, I suppose one could play an A roll higher up the the neck.
The cran is not a roll, and I’ve never really noticed anyone do it other than for demonstration purposes, except perhaps Sean Keane. I’ve never heard anyone bother with playing the A on a different string just to put in a roll when there are plenty of other options available. The closest I can think of is that Randal Bays played it in Gm and rolled the G.
My own progress from rolls=frustrating mystery to rolls=sometimes OK went through 1) slow careful, deliberate practice which produced lumpy rolls (even-even-slow); 2) two handed rolls on A and B which gave me a model for the first time of what even rolls sound like when I was doing them; 3) to realizing that all that slow deliberate practice had given me tension, and that the answer was to relax, which brought me to decent E, F# and G rolls; to 4) realizing that the trouble I had in the first place with A and B rolls was tension, and that the answer was relaxing more not trying harder.
Hugh
Hugh’s right, relaxation is the big factor. With rolls it’s not much different than drumming with your fingers to articulate the rhythm. Focus on the rhythm and not the ornamentation and it makes more sense. If you approach rolls rhythmically they become second nature which is maybe why some contemporary playing gets overfilled with rolls.
Kevin Burke is another one who does “crans”.
Just as roll <> cran, can <> can’t.
OK. The bowed triplet, like Paddy Killoran there is simply an alternative to a short roll. Accomplished with quick flicks of the bow. A normal roll is basically the same as a flute roll. Many bowed triplets(trebles) are interchangeable with standard rolls. After all, they both fit in a 1/4 note. I often play through one time with rolls, and the second time through with the bowed triplet, or vice-versa. A fiddle has a bigger variety of tools at it’s disposal. Don’t worry if you can’t duplicate everything that a fiddle is capable of.
A double cut is simply a bow change to articulate a note followed by a left hand cut. You could notate this as A{A}{d}A Double articulation basically. Not the same as an open-string roll which is what I think Guinness was referring to. Although cutting twice to get A{B}{A}{d}A is rather cumbersome. A simple open-string roll is just as effective and way more efficient. A{cB}A The {cB} is achieved by tapping rather than cutting. Different finger motion.
Cutting rather than rolling is perfectly fine on the fiddle, too. For example, the start of the B part of A Fig For a Kiss. One could do short rolls on those 1/4 note g’s. But they just sound better on a fiddle when cut. It adds a lot without getting too fancy or cramming too much in. I use this technique more in the jig family than in reels.
Okay, a second sound sample. Though he introduces more variation in the opening phrases, Colm O’Donnell seems to have the same basic approach Paddy Killoran does, with A-triplet figures and a mix of G-triplet figures and G rolls. Sometimes it sounds to me like the triplets use the note below, others all the same note; so I’m not clear on what techniques he’s using to achieve the triplets. Opinions?
I admit this is not what I had expected at all when I started this. I had internalized rules that appear to have been a gross over-simplification of things.
For the record, here’s Peter Horan playing the same passage. I’m less certain of what’s going on here – the Gs definitely sound like rolls, the As seem to vary.
I’d kind of assumed that everyone knew about this, but just in case you don’t - there is very useful software available for slowing down any kind of media. The most well known (and the one I use) is Amazing Slow Downer, which is available for Win and Mac from www.ronimusic.com. As well as being able to change the speed it can also change the pitch by any increment you want.
The usual disclaimers about me having no connection to the company apply… 
I just think it works…
Cheers G
Criminey, this whole discussion has caused me to come out of self-imposed exile (I had 1776 posts, which seemed like a good time for a declaration of independence from C&F). However I’ve only seen one post here where someone came close to describing what’s going on.
These are what I (and most other Irish musicians that I know) call short rolls. I’m pretty sure O’Donnell is doing two-handed short rolls on the A there, which is why the taps are not distinct and why they might sound like triplets when in fact they are short rolls. The tap in this case would fingered:
xxo xxo
It flattens the note slightly but not as much as if you tapped with LH3, so it’s a more subtle effect, but when played at speed it sounds like a short roll. The taps on the G rolls are more distinct; he’s either tapping with F# or E (I tap with the E myself).
The phrase that sbfluter is asking about comes up a lot in Irish music, and you can hear it several times in the first few bars of The Maid of Mt. Kisco, the tune that colomon posted above.
Rhymically it’s “dum-dah-diddly.” The “dum” is a note that you want to emphasize and stop at the end so there’s a short but clear break before you hit the “dah.” The “dah” is emphasized less but is also often stopped at the end before going on. The “diddly” is the short roll, which begins with the cut, then the note, then the tap, then the note. In contrast a long roll begins with the note, then the cut, then the note, then the tap, then the note again.
There’s some rhythmic pulsing with the breath that needs to be done in the short roll; you can pick it up by listening to any good flute player.
In the case of The Maid of Mt. Kisco, the tune begins with this phrase.
Dum: E
xxx xxo
Dah: A
xxo ooo
Diddly: short roll on A, fingered any number of ways; here are two examples but there are others:
one-handed:
oxo ooo = cut
xxo ooo = note
xxx ooo = tap
xxo ooo = note
or two-handed:
oxo ooo = cut
xxo ooo = note
xxo xxo = tap
xxo ooo = note
Note that the middle finger of your left hand (LH2) never has to lift.
Dum-dah-diddly is what I hear Paddy Killoran and Colm O’Donnel do on the A. On the following G’s they both play what the Good Brother would refer to as an off-beat long roll: Dum-dah-bla-bla.
as in: EA~A2 BA~A2 | EA~A2 BGAG | E~G3 A~G3 | E~G3 EGD2 …
To my mind on whistle and flute at least where I wouldn’t triple tongue (but one could of course), the difference between note+short roll and off-beat long roll is just one rhythmic emphasis on the “dah” which can be varied according to mood and context. When I see it written out, I don’t put much stock in whether it is written A~A2 (note + short roll) or ~G3 ([offbeat] long roll).
Nope, the off-beat long roll here would completely change the rhythm (because the emphasis on an offbeat long roll would be dum-DAH-blah-blah) and that’s not what they’re doing. Lilted out, this tune would start out:
DUM-dah-DIDdly DUM dah DUM dah DUM-dah-DIDdley DUM dah DUM dah…
Not
DUM-dah DIDdly DUM dah DUM dah dum-DAH-blah-blah deedum etc.
Diddly-dee,
Brad
The offbeat long rolls show up in measure 3. I agree with your first liltographic representation and would continue it like this (I supply bar lines):
DUM-dah-DIDdly DUM dah DUM dah | DUM-dah-DIDdley DUM dah DUM dah | DUM dah-bla-bla DUM dah-bla-bla | DUM dah-bla-bla DUM dah daaaah |
that’s how I hear it, anyway. Maybe we’ll even get Jonesy to post.
Nope, I still disagree – the rolls on G have the same rhythmic structure as the rolls on A. Putting a long roll (even an “offbeat” long roll) there would change the rhythm because the emphasis and timing are different.
I don’t have a recording of myself playing this on flute, but here’s one I did on whistle in 2004 for my students back then; you can clearly hear how a two-handed A roll on the whistle doesn’t sound as convincing as it does on the flute, but because I’m playing slowly and distinctly you can hear how the dum-dah-diddly pattern is repeated for both the A and G rolls in the first few bars there:
http://homepage.mac.com/bhurley/.Public/mtkisco.mp3
Have a listen…
It’s really clear that in measures 11 and 12 (so on the repeat), Colm plays even long rolls. I agree that first time through his G-rolls are closer to the dah-diddly feel of the short rolls. And Paddy (in the clip colomon posted) plays the G-rolls more even than not. But perhaps I am sitting on my ears.
Anyway one ought to have a flute or whistle (or pipes) in hand when discussing stuff like this. I’d better get back to work.
EG~G2 and E~G3 are two very different structures. yet many folks continue to notate tunes as though they are interchangeable, which they are not imo.
in maids of mt. cisco EG~G2 fits the structure of the tune as it would in most cases with reels.
btw, welcome back brad!
Ditto on the welcome back to Brad. I had been wondering what was up with him since I haven’t been seeing evidence of his presence in places I got used to seeing it. (Were you in East Durham last summer, Brad? If so, I missed running into you there.)
Now, on to the topic at hand. The discussion of the merits of EG~G2 vs E~G3 just goes to show how pretty much any kind of notation is virtually useless in describing how ITM is actually played. The reality is that there are four notes in this particular figure, which can be written EGGG. Knowing that this is a reel, the experienced Irish player would then have an idea of how these four notes could be swung to make them sound like a reel. (Swung is as good a word as any to describe the variations in note length and emphasis that would provide the feel of a reel to these notes. There of course is not just one way these notes could be swung to sound as a reel, there are many ways with many subtle differences distinguishing them from each other.) Once the player has decided to swing this figure as a reel, then the decision needs to be made on how to separate the four notes from each other so that they each distinctly sound as notes. It’s not an issue for the first two (EG) because the change in pitch takes care of that, but something has to be done to separate the three Gs from each other. For the flute player, there are only two ways to separate notes of the same pitch, either by stopping the airflow with the tongue or a glottal stop, or by introducing a cut or a tap between the notes.
So consider these two ways of playing the EGGG figure:
(1) E (slur) G (glottal) G (glottal) G
(2) E (slur) G (cut) G (tap) G
Either one of these if swung correctly will sound like a reel, but if not swung correctly they won’t. Now look at the two ways number (2) above can be parsed:
(2a) E (slur) + G (cut) G (tap) G = E + long roll on G = E~G3
(2b) E (slur) + G + (cut) G (tap) G = E + G + short roll on G = EG~G2
Note how (2a) and (2b) are notated differently but are played and will sound exactly the same as each other. The key to how this figure is played is how the four notes EGGG are swung in relation to each other, in order to make them sound like a reel.
I think a lot of people get very confused in trying to describe the difference between a long roll and a short roll. I prefer to not even think of them as two separate things, because as I’ve shown they both boil down to playing the same note three times in a row, with the first and second notes separated by a cut and the second and third notes separated by a tap. A long roll is just the first note followed by a short roll on the same note. The fingers are moving the same way for both of these sequences, right? The only difference is how the three notes are swung, which is determined by their position in the tune. Consider the sequence GGGE instead of EGGG. This is often written ~G3E, but really it could be written G~G2E just as well, couldn’t it? After all, the fingers will move the same way for both, won’t they? So why wouldn’t it be written that way, then? Simply because writing it G~G2E implies the wrong kind of swing for a reel in most players’ minds.
This is why I said above that it’s not a good idea to get hung up on ornamentation, in terms of “should I play a roll there or a triplet, and if I want to play a roll should it be a long roll or a short roll?” and other stuff like that. Those are secondary worries, because no matter what you do, if you don’t (or can’t) play it so the notes come out with the proper swing, it will be wrong. And if you do play it so that the notes come out with the proper swing, then no matter what you do it will be right. EGGG done with glottal stops and the right swing is every bit as perfect as E~G3 or EG~G2 done with the right swing. It’s all about how you play it, not how you describe it.
(back on topic)
As Brad and rama point out, a long roll, e.g. E~G3, is off the rhythm. Four quavers (1/8th notes) should have an accent on the 1st and 3rd. A long roll in this example would imply an accent on the 2nd which would break the rhythm. A short roll, EG~G2, shifts the accent back to the 3rd.
So would it be just to say that the fundamental difference between a long roll and a short roll is that a long roll is accented before the cut note and the short is accented on the cut note?
Sigh.
Let me go back to first principles here. Can we agree that:
-
Paddy Killoran plays EA (3AAA BA (3AAA but EGGG AGGG? (That is, triplets (or yes, maybe more two sixteenths followed by an eighth) on A, just normal eighths on G.)
-
Colm O’Donnell can be heard playing the same rhythmic figures on the same notes, only in a whistling style? That is, whatever you think he is doing, there is very clearly an audible difference between the way he plays the bits with As and the way he sometimes (but not always) plays the bits with Gs, and that difference seems to echo the way Paddy Killoran plays each?
Thank you. This is actually turning out to be a useful discussion. Perhaps now it makes more sense how some flute players muck up the rhythm with their rolls.
I really hate it when the rhythm is mucked up and you’re listening to some flute player and it’s like more than halfway through the first part before you recognize the rhythm and the tune. I prefer ornamentation be left out so you can hear the tune and feel the soul rather than stick it in and mess up the tune.
Not that rolls automatically muck up the rhythm, but this discussion explains why they quite often do.
I’ll see if I can learn to do the example:
(2b) E (slur) + G + (cut) G (tap) G = E + G + short roll on G = EG~G2
To my mind this example sounds more like how you would want it to sound regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the idea of writing it out. Just listening isn’t seeing and without a teacher I have no idea what the fingers are actually doing to make those sounds I hear (and half the time, slowed down or not, I simply can’t tell what I hear) so written clues have to suffice.
“DUM-dah-DIDdly DUM dah DUM dah DUM-dah-DIDdley DUM dah DUM dah”
I never imagined that somebody would say the above and i would understand perfectly.