We all hate these, but...considering concertina

[daiv]

@scheky

@Azalin

@Gaping_Lotus

Slow music, by any standard, but I’d take it any day over someone with ornamentation on every note and no sense of melody or rhythm, which I hear too much, on every instrument.

Same here, I think it’s a bit sad. More and more I avoid sessions because I always feel they’re pushing me somewhere I don’t want to go. Loud, fast, flashy… and I find myself struggling to get in a game I don’t really want to play anyway.

I agree entirely. Everything is too centered on speed and flash these days. The actual feel of the music seems to be lost.

i dont know. i brought this up with my grandmother, and she came up with a good point. she told me it’s cyclical. she said when she was playing, my great grandmonther told her that they were playing too slow. then, when my uncle was playing, my grandma thought he was playing too fast. now, the cool thing to do is to play slow, a la kitty lie over. sometimes i listen to old ceili band recordings and wonder what everyone is talking about in regards to the “modern” obsession with speed.

i think slow is definitely good, but fast is good as well.

[daiv]

@Gaping_Lotus

Yes, I completely agree with you. What I like most about playing the concertina versus the fiddle is working out the best fingerings to get the phrasing the way I want, I guess much like working on bowings. Definitely there is much that can be learned from Noel. I just disagree with the opinions that I always hear that any deviation from Noel’s fingering is wrong, or that if you can’t afford a top notch instrument that you can’t play Irish music.

i dont think that noel would say that deviations from his system are wrong. in fact, he has taught us to play certain tunes ENTIRELY in the C row, and wouldnt let us cross over into the G row, forcing us to use ring finger a on the right hand side. there is a way he likes to play, and people pay him good money to teach it, and he does. beyond that, there are even rumors of noel saying “there is no right way to play the concertina.”

haha, and i dont know… a chinese or a hohner dont seem to be top notch, :p. i think the idea is that if you only have 20 buttons, it will be difficult to play music with other people, which many people are interested in. 50+ years ago, many musicians DID play in C a lot more than they do now. they also would throw their concertinas in the fire when the broke, too…

[Azalin]

@daiv

i think slow is definitely good, but fast is good as well.

Well, I don’t think it’s about good or bad, but about taste… We all have different tastes, but the point was that sessions tend to be on the ‘fast’, thus not being the ideal place for people who like it slower.

My issue with speed isn’t really about speed, I just think in sessions only 10% of people who play really fast can actually play that fast… for most people, it will sound ‘rushed’, and when you can feel the speed, it’s bad. A good player, in control, won’t sound ‘fast’ even if he/she plays fast. I think on the whistle I got enough control to be able to play at speed with control, but with the concertina… well, no matter the speed, I’m not in control!

So yeah there’s a bit of different issues here, being mixed up and all

[Gaping_Lotus]

Yeah I just wanted to get all the Noel Hill people stirred up. It was In Knocknagree that first got me interested in the concertina anyhow, and I listen to plenty of Noel Hill. As much as I like his music, I just don’t have much desire to play exactly like him, but if it wasn’t for him I don’t think I’d be listening to as much old stuff as I do.

About speed, it definitely is a perception thing. Some players like our dear Kim Vincent and Patrick Ourceau here in the Toronto area can sound as if they’re bopping along at a moderate speed, but when you try to jump in your playing just turns to mush. Its all about controlling the rhythm and emphasis within the tempo, not about how many notes you can play per minute. That’s what I love about Mary MacNamara’s playing. She puts space where space is required and let’s the notes and the tone of the instrument breathe. I tend to play very quickly for dancers, but I love milking the notes the way she does when I’m playing at home with friends or alone. I think it will be many years before I get to dance tempo on the concertina, but that’s fine and dandy.

[Caj]

@daiv

you need that one button to play in D, and D is a very common key. it is not worth your time to play in sessions if you cannot play in D.

Believe it or not, I actually ran some computer simulations to test this.

I was comparing different key-note layouts on concertinas, so I wrote a program that took a MIDI file and figured what notes would be hit and in what sequence. Then I dumped in all of Henrik Norbeck’s tune archive, converted to MIDI. The goal was to count the occurrence of certain awkward fingerings, e.g. having to hit two different buttons in succession with the same finger.

While doing this, I also counted the tunes that can be played on 20-button versus 30-button concertinas. I found that a little under half of all the tunes in the archive could be played on 20 buttons alone, and more than half could be played if you substituted just one note, e.g. replacing a passing c# with an e or a rest. In some tunes the C# is too central to the tune to substitute it, but in others it only pops up in a run of notes that is easily fudged out.

The concertina player/seller/repairman/teacher Paul Groff had long insisted that a 20-button is more than good enough for a learner, plays more than enough tunes, and lets you get a pretty-sounding box for a reasonable price. Certainly it’s good enough for a session if you also bring a whistle to play the other tunes.

Also, regarding playing “across the rows”: whether you play along or across the rows, you aren’t using the third row except for the c#.

[scheky]

Exactly what I was getting at. There are definitely tunes that need that C#, but there are plenty enough that don’t so as to never get in the way of a beginner.

[Azalin]

@Caj

Also, regarding playing “across the rows”: whether you play along or across the rows, you aren’t using the third row except for the c#.

What do you mean? How are you going to play G minor tunes, or some of the great tunes that require Eb? There are phrases where using that C natural on the RH accidental row will be very useful.

There are other tunes than the standard session tunes, and it’s nice to be able to play them. I still think that if you’re serious about irish music, you’ll get a thirty buttons. In workshops and classes, teachers will offen make you use that C#, and just last week-end the teacher taught Mayor Harrison’s Fedora, and that G# on the LH accidental row was very useful, and allowed people who had it to actually play along.

[jileha]

@Azalin

@Caj

Also, regarding playing “across the rows”: whether you play along or across the rows, you aren’t using the third row except for the c#.

What do you mean? How are you going to play G minor tunes, or some of the great tunes that require Eb? There are phrases where using that C natural on the RH accidental row will be very useful.

There are other tunes than the standard session tunes, and it’s nice to be able to play them. I still think that if you’re serious about irish music, you’ll get a thirty buttons. In workshops and classes, teachers will offen make you use that C#, and just last week-end the teacher taught Mayor Harrison’s Fedora, and that G# on the LH accidental row was very useful, and allowed people who had it to actually play along.

Also, if you play chords/accompanying notes/fast triplets etc., you often have to use alternate buttons, including those in the third row. There are probably only few tunes where I don’t use buttons from the third row (even without the C#).

If you start out and learn on a 20 button concertina, you narrow your style down quite a bit; it will be much harder to change your style later when you get a 30+ button concertina - if you would even consider doing that (ie. change your style after having played for a while). Flexibility is good! You want to pick the style you like, not the style the concertina dictates you!

The Rochelle would be my recommendation, too.
There is a big difference to the better hybrids (I have a Morse now), but I was also rather impressed with what you can actually do on the Rochelle.

[Azalin]

Well said, I forgot about the triplets. I must admit the only ones I use for triplet on the RH are the C# buttons (I got one on the pull, one on the push) but there are more you can use, I just suck with triplets, for now…

[Trip]

I’ll join in just by saying, same thing is happening to me too: im starting to get interested in a concertina… of course going the usual C/G way wouldn’t be as interesting, and I wanted to ask about the D/A instead… same price, might be a good way to start with? Bob Tedrow’s one looks great. I’m carefully asking if anyone could note the big differences one would have with a D/A instead of the C/G, or maybe better asked: what one loses and what one gains in a D/A over a C/G? Thanks.

[Azalin]

@Trip-

I’ll join in just by saying, same thing is happening to me too: im starting to get interested in a concertina… of course going the usual C/G way wouldn’t be as interesting, and I wanted to ask about the D/A instead… same price, might be a good way to start with? Bob Tedrow’s one looks great. I’m carefully asking if anyone could note the big differences one would have with a D/A instead of the C/G, or maybe better asked: what one loses and what one gains in a D/A over a C/G? Thanks.

Well, since no one answered. The C/G is your best choice if you want to play irish music with people, get lessons from time to time, etc. Most of the sessions and workshops where your C/G will fit more naturally.

If you don’t want to play irish music, or only want to play on your own, then it’s really not important what keys your concertina is going to be in. So it all depends on what your goals are, there is no straight answer.

[Trip]

Of course Irish music and of course with people. Learning curve will be longer on D/A I presume. But I may as well give up to the C/G instead. Other things to consider were probably discussed here alot; Wheatstone, Jefferies… Makers… etc.
From what I gathered around, I’d want a low action - shorter button traveling distance. My question is if D/A or C/G have any difference in playability, as if things on a D/A will be easier to achieve, and vice versa, easier on the C/G.

[Azalin]

@Trip-

Of course Irish music and of course with people. Learning curve will be longer on D/A I presume. But I may as well give up to the C/G instead. Other things to consider were probably discussed here alot; Wheatstone, Jefferies… Makers… etc.
From what I gathered around, I’d want a low action - shorter button traveling distance. My question is if D/A or C/G have any difference in playability, as if things on a D/A will be easier to achieve, and vice versa, easier on the C/G.

Well, maybe someone else could answer this specific question, but I know that things have been proven to be ‘easy’ on the C/G if you adopt some basic techniques/rules like assigning one column of buttons to one finger for example. The thing is, even if another system was easier, I would definitely go with C/G because you’d be very, very isolated with another system, and would have quite a limited choice (if any) when it comes to lessons or buying any new maker’s instrument (Dipper, Suttner, Carroll, etc). I’d see this as a handicap.

If you really want an answer you might have more luck if you post on concertina.net, where people play strange instruments, like english and hayden/duet concertinas

[jileha]

@Trip-

Of course Irish music and of course with people. Learning curve will be longer on D/A I presume. But I may as well give up to the C/G instead. Other things to consider were probably discussed here alot; Wheatstone, Jefferies… Makers… etc.
From what I gathered around, I’d want a low action - shorter button traveling distance. My question is if D/A or C/G have any difference in playability, as if things on a D/A will be easier to achieve, and vice versa, easier on the C/G.

Often, concertinas in different keys will be played using pretty much the same fingering/buttons as the “standard” C/G concertina. In other words, if you play a tune that’s normally in C major on a Bb/F concertina, it will come out in Bb major and not in C major.

That makes a lot of sense since quite a few people own several concertinas in different keys. It would be a major pain in the you-know-where having to re-learn each and every single tune with different fingering for each of their instruments!

Concertinas in different keys are generally used with instruments that can transpose easily, ie. non-melody instruments such as guitars. Often, lower-tuned concertinas are chosen as solo instruments for the nicer sound of the lower reeds. As for playability, there shouldn’t be any difference at all; what you play on them will just be in a different key.

The D/A seems to be an exception from other concertinas since the A row is tuned a forth below the D, not a fifth above as in other concertinas (cf. http://www.concertina.net/kc_known_keys.html). So this would definitely ensure that you couldn’t play any other concertina “on the fly” unless you stay strictly within one row.
It’s hard to imagine how this difference would affect your playing. You might want to ask this question at concertina.net; maybe you can find somebody who actually plays Irish music on a D/A (I’d be surprised, though).

There are two major “schools” of concertina playing, within the rows and across the rows. Within the rows is the older way, probably because earlier concertina players more commonly used two-row instruments without the accidentals and therefore generally played tunes in C and G (and transposed tunes in other keys to those keys, cf. Kitty Hayes played a lot of tunes in C). To some extent, modern players all make use of cross-fingering.

You play across the rows in order to use buttons that are more convenient in regard to finger sequence or bellows direction and to play in different keys from the two main ones. The advantage of a D/A for Irish music would be that you get lower D, lower E, and F#s and C#s on both pull and push (if my improvised button layout conversion is correct). However, you get also G#s and D#s on one of the two main rows, which are not that often used in ITM. This is more or less a waste of “real estate”. You’d want to have notes in the two main rows that are most commonly used. The only button that is missing in the C/G layout is the C# (placed in the accidental row). In that respect, a D/G concertina would be a more logical choice than the D/A.

Due to the lower register of the A row, you’d have to use your weaker fingers more on the higher alternate notes on the A row (d, e, f, a would use ring finger and pinky). This might have the effect that you’d play more within the D row and less across the rows, particularly as a beginner in need of developing strength and dexterity in those fingers. Nothing wrong with that per se, but it’s a limitation in some regards. This is one of the nice things of the layouts where the inner row is a fifth higher: the most commonly used alternate buttons are placed much more conveniently together for use with your stronger fingers.

I don’t quite understand your preference of a D/A over the C/G. Learning to play the C/G well will be “interesting” enough and a big enough challenge. A C/G will allow you to play with others, to participate in workshops or use tutorial DVDs, to get advise from fellow learners, maybe even find a teacher, etc. If you meet another concertina player, you can swap instruments to try out different models/makers. You can listen to recordings and learn much more easily from them; in some recordings, you can clearly distinguish right and left hand usage. This is very helpful in figuring out what the musician does and how certain effects are achieved. If they use a concertina in a different key, you can use Transcribe or the Amazing Slow Downer to change the key and can still use the information on the C/G. Forget about that for the D/A. You’d be pretty much on your own in regard to figuring things out.

You also play the whistle right? You wouldn’t advise a beginning whistle player to get a whistle in F, would you?
You can always get a D/A concertina as a second instrument, should you still have the desire later.

[Paul_Groff]

(edited to delete)

[Trip]

jileha and Paul Groff,

Wow, thank you so much for this information! This is exactly what I was asking about. Amazing!
This information is not easy to obtain

@jileha,
I asked Button Box if their Morse D/A concertinas are simply a tone higher than the C/G, and got a confirmation reply. This doesn’t mean the middle row is a forth lower than the D. As Paul Groff noted, the latter setting is probably nonstandard, but I wouldn’t know that. Since I never really played a concertina to the level of understanding the note layout vs bellow direction vs melody, I can’t know the REAL difference between playing the same tune in the same key (D for example) on C/G and D/A. It would be obviously different, maybe even completely - rhythm-wise as well. Maybe I’m wrong.

For example, on a flute of D and on a flute of C, one can play the same tune in the same key (Fisherman’s Lilt in C for example). It is 100% possible, but might be different in the playability; accents, rolls etc. I presume the same applies to the concertina.

You mentioned the rows - which is exactly what I wanted to know (thanks for that) - you said that I get G# and D# in the main rows, which notes on the main row do I get with the C/G? (I can check out the note position charts).
I might of course just give up and go the “standard way” C/G, but I don’t think you can really compare getting an F whistle over a D whistle to getting a D/A over a C/G concertinas, because D/A supposed to be used for regular tunes (D,A, Amin,G,Emin etc) - or am I wrong? ;/

@Paul Groff

You are the first person (not only on C&F) that is actually for the idea of playing a D/A, with reasons included
I was very happy reading your post. Do you know if Kitty Hayes had a 30key C/G?
Since most Irish tunes are based on D, why do you say that traditional settings are often neglected? Or maybe I didn’t understand your words entirely.

Thank you both again so much,
Philip

[Paul_Groff]

Trip-

OK, First keep in mind that today we are in a period where there is a trend toward standardization of the C/G three row anglo-chromatic concertina as the “normal” concertina for Irish music.

So if you want to take the “road more travelled” – at least among the crowds of folks who want to play Irish traditional music on the concertina – get one of those and you will have many options to learn from books, workshops, and by conferring with other beginners. But since you asked about the D/A, it does in fact have some unique and nice features for the right student.

The C/G three-row (in most common 30 key versions) will have only the notes of the C scale (white keys of a piano) on the middle row. The inside row (nearer the handrails) will typically have only the notes of a G major scale (white keys of a piano except one – there are no F naturals; instead of those, the F sharps, which are black key on the piano, are present). 20 key (two-row) C/G concertinas will usually have all those same notes, (those 8 of the 12 notes of a piano keyboard, with F# the only black key). But on the typical three row C/G concertina, the outside row (away from the handrails) will have the final 4 notes of a piano keyboard (C#, Eb, G#, and Bb) in a few octaves, plus some extra low (E, F, A) and reverse-direction (G, A sometimes high D) and high (sometimes F, A) notes. You can easily find examples of the “Wheatstone/Lachenal” or “Jeffries” 30-button C/G anglo concertina button-note layouts online. THese are the two most common and are actually very similar.

For the experts, you already know there are many exceptions to the layouts I describe above.

The standard D/A concertinas in two or three rows have the same layout as a C/G, but transposed up one full step.

Your comments about the Morse concertina are a little confusing. The middle row of a standard three-row anglo is always named first when describing the keys; it is the lowest in pitch with the inside row pitched a fifth higher. So on a three-row C/G, the C row is middle and lower; on a three-row D/A, the D row is middle and lower; on a three-row G/D, the G row is middle and lower. Usually the G/D is pitched lowest of these key systems: the D row of a typical G/D concertina is in pitch with the D row of a typical D/A concertina, but the G row on the typical G/D concertina is an octave below the G row of a typical C/G concertina. All those “typicals” were inserted because there are also baritone concertinas pitched an octave below standard, and piccolo concertinas pitched an octave above standard.

You can learn to play Irish music on a C/G or a D/A and you can start on a two-row rather than a three row instrument in either key. For that matter you can learn on a concertina in any key or even on a one-row concertina (yes, some have been made). Later you might want to change for a different key or an instrument with more buttons – or maybe not. You almost certainly will want to trade up to the best quality concertina you can afford if you get serious about the instrument.
But the nature of your experience as a learner will be different depending on what key instrument you play. There isn’t a right or wrong; it depends on you and your circumstances. If there is a good player or especially a good teacher near you your best bet would be to follow his or her advice.

Among the older generation of players there were many different styles played and some of those seem to be neglected by many of today’s beginners and hobbyists. But if you can meet and learn from the very best players, or even listen very carefully to their recordings if that is all you can get, even among today’s players you may find more pluralism about keys and settings than might be expected from reading the posts on internet sites.

Good luck and best wishes,

PG

Oh, to answer your question, I believe the late Mrs. Hayes recorded on a three-row C/G Lachenal. I don’t think she used the third row much if at all on her first recording (“A touch of Clare”). According to Peter Laban, earlier she had a G/D instrument and years ago she must have played German ones in who knows what keys. Maybe Peter can tell us that as well. Her style and most of her settings could be played on almost any 2- or 3-row german or anglo concertina, but my point is that many of the settings she recorded would actually be in “normal keys” if played on a D/A.

[Trip]

@Paul,

I ofcourse meant the inside row of A, not the middle. My mistake.

I have checked the C/G layout.
http://www.concertina.net/images/mws_cg_color_note.jpg
I have no idea why they colored only part of the same notes.

this one is nice though.
http://www.concertina.net/images/mws_cg_color_octave.jpg

I will create the same table, transposing every note tone higher to get an idea of how a D/A will look like.
Excel would do the job.

[Trip]

Here’s a chart I’ve made, relating on that standard 30key Wheatstone chart.

http://www.aqpi44.dsl.pipex.com/trip-/da.JPG

one indeed will notice the 2 G#'s on the inside right row.
there’s only one D2 on the left side - I wonder what that means in practice.
one D3 left, one D3 right… Can’t really know anything without experience ;/

[StevieJ]

As a box player what I’m going to say here might well be full of holes, so please correct me if it is, but…

Choosing a D/A concertina over a C/G strikes me as analogous to choosing to play C#/D over B/C - only more so! D/A is one full step above C/G and C#/D is one full step above B/C.

The great majority of Irish players favour B/C and most of them will tell you you would be wrongheaded to choose any other system. (They also tend to want to pigeonhole the C#/D and devalue it by saying things like “a good choice if you want to play polkas” - but by inference, not if you don’t.)

There are basically no tutors available for C#/D but a fair number for B/C. So unless you have a teacher or other players close by, you’re on your own in many respects. But you can learn useful stuff from B/C tutors that you can apply to C#/D.

C#/D forces you to play many common keys basically on the one row, without making much use of your “accidental” row. This gives a somewhat “punchier” sound in those keys. (However I’d imagine that on concertina, since you have many more notes available in both directions, you can play much more legato in, for example, D major on a D/A tina if you want to.)

On B/C (and if I gather correctly on C/G concertina as well) the crucial note of F# is a bit odd, not to say awkward - there’s only one of them, and it’s in the “wrong” bellows direction for playing arpeggiated passages smoothly. (Although in the right direction for smooth linear passages.)

Some keys that are a cinch on B/C (such as D minor) are a bit of a bear on C#/D - but possible of course. They just need a bit more practise. And the reverse applies of course. The same must apply to the differences between the two tina systems.

The big difference between choosing C#/D box and D/A tina is that there are plenty of recordings by fine C#/D players to help you decide which system you favour - and once you have decided, to emulate their styles.

Theoretically, then, I don’t see why D/A shouldn’t be just as useful for Irish music. As with the C#/D box, You have all the notes after all - just in different places from the “standard” system. But you’ll be swimming against the current, you won’t get help so easily, and you won’t have many examples to copy.