Wannabe whistle smith who wants to discuss fipple design..

Whistle
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..that’s what I am :slight_smile:

I have a few questions for the (hopefully) more experienced whistlesmiths on this board before I start on my first project, a low D aluminium whistle (I know, I will fail miserably.. but hopefully learn something from the experience).

I was considering going with about the same building technique that Alba whistles are made with. My plan is the following: take a 25 mm diameter tube (1,5 mm thick walls) and cut a rectangular slot from the end, something like 15 mm wide and 40 mm long. Then file the short end of this slot to a labium or lip, filing a bit more on the outer (“up”) side than on the inside. Then insert a tight fitting fipple plug (30mm long) made from plexiglass (PMMA plastic) into the end, leaving a hole about 10 by 15 mm. Then onto the whole thing fit a piece of 28x1.5mm tube with a 10-15mm slot in it, the same width as the first slot (or possibly a bit wider?) which will “frame” the hole.

Then I will file and tweak endlessly, until I’m satisfied enough to fix the parts with epoxy. Then as a finishing touch saw off the fipple 45 degrees or so from below, to make it a bit easier to fit in the mouth :slight_smile:

That is my basic plan. Now please tell me everything that’s wrong with it :slight_smile: and perhaps provide answers to the following questions:

Note that I didn’t intend to deform the tube at all, except by filing and cutting. This means that the windway will be curved along the tube arc, and the “lip” will also be curved. Are there any known problems with this approach?

Alba whistles (who as far as I can see from their website makes their whistles in something like this way) make a lip that isn’t just curved along the curvature of the tube; it’s also curved “away” from the fipple, making the sound hole look like a rectangle with one long side (the lip) replaced with an arc, not quite a semi-circle but close. What would the advantages of this be? Should I consider trying it?

I’ve acquired a Dremel multitool to use for most of the work. Any handling instructions for a rather inexperienced craftsman when using it?

Phew.. I hope my ramblings make sense to someone knowledgeable and kind enough to help me out a bit..

Regards (and pleas of mercy)

-Andreas, swedish amateur whistler and wannabe amateur whistlesmith

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Hi Andreas,

There are many other smiths with more distinguished pedigrees (so hopefully they’ll answer, too) but I’ll take a shot here.

The design you are considering seems to be similar to that offered by Mike Burke, Glenn Shultz and Phil Hardy (the new one) as well. Mike and the others don’t arc the labium away, though. Not sure why this is a feature on the Alba. Because of the wind drag at the edges of the channel, if it was to be arc’d at all I would think that the other way would be preferred. So my thought would be to leave it as you have planned.

As for problems with this design: Many really like it and it tends to produce a loud volumed, sweet whistle. Others don’t because of the lack of Chiff sometimes associated with a less rich sound. For me, I like it, and don’t see too many issues standing in your way.

As for shaping the fipple, don’t forget the chamfer at the end of the fipple. You could even consider undercutting it a tad.

Regarding the use of the dremel… I would not recommend using it on the blade or windway unless you do so with extreem caution (and probably not even then). It is very easy to get carried away and take a divot out of the blade. I would recommend sticking with your files on this area of the whistle, except the final polishing / deburring steps.

So have fun. Looks like you’ve got a good plan going.

Erik

p.s. I recommend cutting out the lip area with a small hand saw of somesort (read Jewelers saw) and then grinding it to form a curve rather than a straight 45 degree cut.

[ This Message was edited by: ErikT on 2002-03-18 11:50 ]

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Thank you very much for taking time to help me out, Erik. It’s much appreciated and will probably save me a lot of time (and pain and grief).

What is your thoughts on cutting a small bevel on the fipple plug on the end just before the window, at the end of the windway? I’ve read that some do this, and it should be easy to accomplish.. just file off the edge of the plug to form a small 45 degree angle along the portion of the plug that makes up the end of the windway..

On the other hand, this is said to increase the volume slightly, and if my design is known to produce a “loud” whistle anyway, perhaps this is unneccessary?

Another thing: How much should I file off on the underside of the lip? Just a little bit, or should I take off almost as much as on the top, to place the edge just below the middle of the windway?

And what about the shape of the edge itself? I suppose that it shouldn’t be anywhere near razor sharp, but instead slightly rounded?

Questions, questions.. perhaps I should get going and make my own mistakes as I go along, but I’d really like to avoid the more disastrous ones by consulting the wise first.. :slight_smile:

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Your design should work well. My own wooden whistles are based very largely on the Schultz designs, which are made much as you describe, and I’m quite happy with them. I’ve had 2 VERY well known pros play them and give them good comments, as well as one well known whistlemaker.
The Dremel is a terrific tool, but can be VERY dangerous. Use it at a fairly high speed, and feed whatever tool you are using with VERY little pressure. Let the RPMs do the work. I file my ramps by hand with diamond files and 400-600 grit wet/dry slivers of sandpaper glued to wooden strips. I do use the Dremel for cutting that windway slot, using a fibreglass cutting disc, but I am not sure how well this will work on aluminum. Good luck-- this can be a very frustrating, but also very rewarding hobby.

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What is your thoughts on cutting a small bevel on the fipple plug on the end just before the window, at the end of the windway? I’ve read that some do this, and it should be easy to accomplish.. just file off the edge of the plug to form a small 45 degree angle along the portion of the plug that makes up the end of the windway..

On the other hand, this is said to increase the volume slightly, and if my design is known to produce a “loud” whistle anyway, perhaps this is unneccessary?

I would suggest trying both ways to see what you like. You may find a better sound on the one with the bevel. Keep the bevel short, though. I have experiemented with very long bevels (ie. 45 degrees but projecting quite far into the window. With this design I could achieve very loud whistles (the bevel seemed to act as a sounding board), but sacrificed quality of tone and ease in the upper octave. It was also more difficult to voice.

Another thing: How much should I file off on the underside of the lip? Just a little bit, or should I take off almost as much as on the top, to place the edge just below the middle of the windway?

Most of the designs that are similar to yours align the labium with the bottom of the windway (or near there). I’m going to proclaim my ignorance on this topic, beyond that, and let someone else more familiar with your type of design comment. (Paul, what do you think?) For my designs, raising the labium decreases wind noise and chiff (makes it sweeter) - up until about 3/8 the height of the windway.

And what about the shape of the edge itself? I suppose that it shouldn’t be anywhere near razor sharp, but instead slightly rounded?

Yes, do round it off a bit. You’ll find that it takes some of the touchiness out of the notes.

You may have thought of this, but I would consider making the mouth piece separate from the body. This way you can experiment with both the hole position and the head without starting over with an entirely new whistle.

Erik

[ This Message was edited by: ErikT on 2002-03-19 07:40 ]

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Thank you very much, both of you. I have now started to work on the whistle.. we’ll see how it works out :slight_smile: I have cut out the windway slot and the “windowframe” slot with the dremel.. tricky but quite possible, especially after I realised that it worked much better with a bit of lubrication in the form of a drop of oil on the material.

Now, if I only had a little lathe so I wouldn’t have to file and sandpaper down the bloody plug from 25mm to 23mm diameter.. they say that acrylic plastic is just as workable as wood, but they never mention that the wood it is as workable as is really, really hard wood.

I will probably report back on the board as I work along, either to brag or to elicit sympathy. Wish me luck. :slight_smile:

-Andreas

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For that bevel, try filing a VERY small one, then test play the whistle. File a bit more, retest, etc. Too much of a bevel will make it difficult to push the whistle into the upper register, while none at all can give you a very weak lower register that wants to break upwards.

If you have a drill press, you can sorta use it as a lathe to sand/file those plugs. Make the plug about 1" too long, chuck it snugly in the drill press, then spin it and let the motor do the work! BTW-- Delrin plastic is VERY nice to work with and has an attractive black color which should look great with aluminum. Comes in a lot of different diameters.

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Eagan

Take a look at this site,the diagrams may be enlightening…

Kim](http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/6611/makewhis.htm%22%3EKim) Fulton-Bennett’s Pennywhistle in D

If you would like some help with the calculations,I suggest this site…
Pete](http://www.cwo.com/~ph_kosel/flutomat.html%22%3EPete) Kosel’s Flutomat Calculator

I aso recommend Trevor Robinson,Bart Hopkins and Lew Paxton Price’s books on flute design found here…

Shakuhachi.com</a](http://www.shakuhachi.com/TOC-CM.html">Shakuhachi.com</a)>

Thomas Hastay.

[ This Message was edited by: Thomas-Hastay on 2002-03-20 17:57 ]

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Andreas,

I’ll send you a piece of delrin, 23 millimeters. Just send me an email.
daniel@bingamon.com

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What a topic! I too went out and purchased a Dremel, and learned that the blade is much too tricky to make with a Dremel. I looked at my Water Weasel and thought, “how in the world did he make that blade so perfect”. The same with John Sindt, who has a blade that reflects light just perfectly. I still do not have a clue as to how they made their blades perfectly flat, yet rounded. As for making the holes, I did have a tube come out of my hand and spun around and around on the end of the Dremel. All I could do was to hold it straight out, so that when it came off it wouldn’t hit me. I have only found white Delrin plastic as a fipple plug. I used to carve a wooden plug, but I think they swell out of shape, and then the whistle clogs. I do believe that tunable is the way to go, so that when you have found a good mouthpiece, it can go with the one tube you finally made that was in tune. And it just might also fit a longer tube for a lower key, or shorter. I finally made a copper whistle high D that sounds as clear as a bell. Now how does one add chiff to the sound?

But after spending many, many hours out in the garage, filing and drilling, and getting copper and plastic all over me, I have found that I much more enjoy recording for Clips and Snips. I was up until 1:00 AM, last night, recording my violin. I had no idea it was that late! All three kids and my wife slept through it!

JP

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Nice to see so many people taking an interest in my little hobby project :slight_smile:. Last night I managed to file, sand and dremel down the plug to acceptable proportions, file the blade and fit the mouthpiece together. I’m quite satisfied with the sound.. very sweet and clear, seems to be very easy to keep in the low register but still not too hard to overblow.. well, we’ll see what happens to that when I start drilling holes fear.

Before I do that, I should finish the mouthpiece completely, though.. which includes making a tuning sleeve. How long should it be, you think? How much adjustment is needed? My plan was to make a sleeve 6 cm long, pushing the mouthpiece end into it 2 cm and fix it there with epoxy. The lower part of the flute should then have its standard position 3 cm into the sleeve. That makes about 1 cm adjustment both ways possible. Is that enough? I have never actually seen a whistle with a tuning slide, so I really have no idea :slight_smile:.

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I forgot to mention it on another post… YOu asked how Schultz and Sindt make their ramps. Glenn files his by hand, John Sindt uses a Bridgeport milling machine. Been there, seen each of them at work. Both are wonderful craftsmen, and terrific guys.