Hello fluters, makers and DIY freaks, perhaps someone knows a solution.
It is about the tuning slide of my flute : the connection between head joint - tube and the tube in the barrel is to loose. While playing the embouchure rolls away or the slide moves
aside. What can I do?
Have a fine day,
Herbert
Gently squeeze one of the tubes slightly out of round (slightly oval) so that the tubes have more contact with each other.
Hi Herbert: Geeez, my advice would be to seek the opinion and help of a professional repair person in this matter. There are certainly many competent people out there that know what they are doing, and some are regulars on this board. Two that come to my mind immediatly are Casey Burns and Jem Hammond (Jemtheflute). I don’t have a clue as to their time constraints; however, you could at least speak with them and get their opinions. I don’t mean to leave others out, but these two men, based upon my experience, know what’s going on and you can trust them 100%. I certainly wouldn’t “do it myself” although such tasks can provide endless hours of enterainment and anxiety; in my own case, I would most likely screw it up and ruin a perfectly nice flute even though I started out with the best of intentions. Good luck.
Hi,
A suitable squeeze would fix the looseness problem but since there is no calibration info for “gentle” I wouldn’t dream of recommending it!
Anyway, it wouldn’t fix another very important issue which is leakage. I have found a good seal on the tube to be very worthwhile in terms of response. Hammy Hamilton recommended a mix of beeswax and vaseline to give a stiffish seal/lubricant that works really well. Approx 50:50 but can be adjusted either way to get the best balance for you. Much safer than a squeeze and a much more positive result.
Jim
…the opinion and help of a professional repair person in this matter…
While Kevin Krell might not be a professional repair person he is certainly qualified to give advice on this forum. I hate using sticky stuff on my flute. I have been doing what Kevin suggest for over twenty years now, with never a problem. It works a charm
Well, no. Although, maybe, since I don’t believe there ARE any qualifications to give advice on this forum. Never stopped anyone.
Anyway, here was a thread in which I remember it previously discussed:
https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/tuning-slide/81068/1
While there is a lot of mention of grease, here’s flutemaker Terry McGee’s comment, which is more accurate and also offers an explanation of how it’s sort of self-correcting.
Your problem is probably because the two tubes are too round. Imagine two perfect cylinders that just slide nicely as a tuning slide should. Add a bit of dirt, and it will jam hopelessly. Slide it up and down a few times and wear off a few molecules and the head will fall out. We can’t have “perfect” tuning slides - they are perfectly impractical.
Leave the barrel slide nice and round, take the head slide between fingers and thumb and squeeze. Squeeze in some easily remembered dimension, eg side to side with the embouchure up. Test the fit. If not tight yet, repeat, in the same direction. If overdone, squeeze in the opposite direction.
This might seem like vandalism, but it’s exactly what’s needed. The head slide becomes slightly eccentric, but is forced cylindrical again when inserted into the barrel slide. The male slide then acts like a spring, permitting easy adjustment while preventing free movement.
Don’t run amok - we only need it fractionally eccentric! And don’t be tempted to squeeze the barrel too. If you have two eccentric slides, they will feel funny when you rotate the head. You will have loose and tight patches.
Keep the slide well lubricated to prevent metal fret and minimise wear.
Terry
Simple fix. Teflon tape on the tenon. Never leave home without it.
Now might be a good time for someone to mention the following:
The original poster didn’t mention exactly what sort of flute this is or who the maker was and might first want to identify whether his slide was made to be used dry or lubricated. Making the tube oval, or more oval than it may already be, is unnecessary if he has a slide that was meant to be lubed if he is now running short of the intended amount and/or viscosity of lube. All that would be needed is more or the proper lube. Also, a slide with enough space to function properly when lubed with beeswax and vaseline will require a relatively large amount of ovalling. OTH, lubing a slide that was originally fit dry and has simply gotten a touch loose due to wear can cause the slide to seize up completely. In this situation putting the right amount of oval in one part of the slide as mentioned,would be appropriate.
So, Lubricate and Oval: Two different techniques for two different situations, generally speaking. Let’s not go bending metal or mucking up slides with wax and vaseline unless it’s appropriate to the instrument, shall we? Unfreezing a stuck slide or taking excessive oval out of a slide is not fun, particularly for the person without the appropriate tools. Just sayin’.
I strongly, strongly recommend consulting directly with the flute-maker or with a professional repairer. As someone who has made mistakes related to flutes, with disastrous consequences, I know that hell hath no fury like a flute-maker whose flute has been messed up by someone who didn’t consult with them.
Unless they are long dead 
I had the same issue with a Copley flute - loose tuning slide.
Dave got back to me to use a little toilet sealing wax. Non permanent, easy to remove, and it works like a chrm.
Chuck
If the maker of the flute is still around - that is the person to talk to. If it is an antique flute - there are people around who can look at it, who do repairs (I stay away from these!). But in the meantime, the toilet installation wax works great. Trombone slide grease is too slippery (its to facilitate the rapid movement of the trombone slide after all). You want something with higher viscosity.
Casey
I use the purple-ish “La Tromba” cork and slide grease that comes in small black pots for loose tuning slides, works really well, even on slides that fall apart by gravity if greaseless. I apply a thick coat of the grease on the male slide and also a bit inside the female slide, push the male slide into the female slide, remove excess grease before the female slide enters its gap in the headjoint, and don’t turn the slide parts against each other while sliding them together, as I found that gives a fit less secure. I never ovalled a slide, La Tromba always did the job. However what Loren said has to be kept in mind.
Re lubrication of slides, I’d recommend white silicone lubricant, stick form. Brand I have is “Panef”.
When I mentioned this before, there was some objection from those that applied it too liberally in other applications. A tiny bit on a fingertip, smeared all over the slide, not enough to actually see will suffice. Only a few molecules thickness will do. Not my original idea, but gotten from recommendation of Chris Wilkes.
I’ve tried beeswax, petroleum jelly (Vaseline), mixtures of same, and cork grease. All of these created problems for me - too stiff, then too loose, or promoted minor corrosion and freezing. If it works for you, great…but didn’t for me. The silicone seldom requires renewal and remains pretty much the same over time and temperatures.
Now as Terry stated, if the ovality is right and slight and the fit tolerable snug, probably not needed. But I find the movement smoother with silicone anyway, and am leery of metal-to-metal moving parts without any lubrication at all. Again, the tiniest, invisible amount is all that’s needed.
Secondly, can someone explain (apart from an admirable excess of caution) what harm could be done by following Terry’s instructions? If you start with slight pressure, test and proceed with more pressure (or more presses) as you go, and the changes are very small, and are entirely reversible by pressing on the opposite axis, how can you cause damage? I’m not saying it’s impossible because there might be an Incredible Hulk out there with no sense of his strength that would mash the sucker flat, but I’ve done this on a number of flutes with no problems. No tools needed, just hands.
OK, moderately sensitive hands. But we’re musicians, right?
I had this problem recently with my Windward flute. I had applied a tiny amount of slide grease maybe a year ago during a regular maintenance session, but it either dried out or sublimated or whatever the heck happens to that stuff. I applied a little more than I normally would this time, then wiped off any excess on both ends after closing the slide (checking inside too). That added enough resistance so the slide action is now smooth, but it stays where I put it. No worries about leakage, as a side benefit.
It was some generic slide grease for woodwinds and brass instruments bought at a music store a while back. I don’t know the brand. It’s not cork grease; it’s thinner than that.
I read about the “gentle squeeze” trick for oval-ing the slide, but aside from worrying about going too far, I wondered if that wouldn’t lock in a fixed angle of the headjoint? I’m still experimenting with where I want the embouchure hole aligned to the finger holes.
Think about it this way…
Outer part is perfectly (within reason, theoretically, close enough) round.
Inner part is the tiniest bit oval.
There is no tighter or looser orientation for the inner part (attached to the headjoint).
It acts the same at any rotation.
If there were a preferred orientation because the outer part is also slightly oval for some reason, you could compensate temporarily by rotation at the tenon/socket connection of body to barrel. Longer term fix would be to use calipers, preferably with a strip of tape over the jaws to prevent marring, to assess where the outer sleeve (on the barrel) is out of round and fix that. But it’s not likely to be oval unless the maker was careless or you did something very bad to it - the metal is typically much thicker than the slide on the headjoint.
I think the trick re: squeezing the slide (as per Terry’s instructions) is that the portion of tube within the barrel “corrects” the out-of-roundness sufficiently, while maintaining enough tension between slides to prevent slippage. Same as when tubing is originally drawn through a die to set the size and shape. In this example, the bit of tubing in the barrel “is” the die.
I’m not entirely sure I follow you here Kevin, but for reference, if you take a look at a well-used Boehm silver flute, the headjoint will typically show three points of wear. Often darker in color. As I recall, that’s because the mandrel used to size fit the head has three contact points. That is only used with the headjoint, not the thick-walled socket into which it fits to the body of the flute. That part is entirely cylindrical.
For the wooden flutes I’m familiar with, there’s a thin-walled silver or brass tubing inserted into the headjoint, either as a full lining or partial, which fits inside a thicker-walled tubing in the barrel. Squeezing the thin tubing is analogous to the results produced by the three-point mandrel, only it creates two wider points of contact.
The point Terry makes is that it’s practically impossible, wooden or Boehm, to make any specimens of perfect-fitting round tubing work, one inside the other. Tolerances are just too small, and likelihood of grit or pollen or cat hairs too high. Could attempt it, but IMO a fool’s errand. You’d end up depending on some impossibly specific thickness of lubricant to make the tubes stay in place.
On the other hand, if you make the inside somehow oval or otherwise (three-point mandrel) not perfectly round, there’s enough “give” in the system due to flexing, and enough room for crap to escape. A very thin layer of silicone lubricant doesn’t change that apart from making things slide easier and helping extraneous debris to work out of the closer contact parts. Plus assuring an airtight seal.
I don’t know if that’s clearer, but the best I can do to explain.
Woodfluter: sounds good to me. I don’t think that this oval-ling is a source of leakage particularly, given the initial direction of airflow. Leakage tends to be more through wood cracks, or a loose-fitting liner within the headjoint or barrel (that is, an air gap between the metal and wood elements). I’m also nervous, like MTGuru, about using silicone products around wood instruments, as it does easily spread and can cause difficulty when performing crack repair, use of adhesives, and refinishing.
Understood, and a sensible caution.
However, we’re talking about a really tiny amount applied to the metal parts.
If you go crazy with it and get it all over the place, oh yeah, can see how that could have impacts.
But rationally used on a slide, it’s way far from any potential cracks or need for adhesives.
I suspect folks are thinking some orders of magnitude more stuff here than I use.
If that became an issue on wooden parts for any wild, unimaginable (or almost comedic) reason, I’d suspect that a strong organic solvent like acetone could remove it. But I might be wrong! Never had to cope with that. But the way I use it, there’s just no realistic issues here.
One little anecdote. I’ve neglected my McGee Rudall for a couple of months. Just playing the Olwell. Only yesterday did I break it out and try a few tunes prior to a gig. So, the tuning slide (long previously lubricated with a wee bit of silicone) moved with nary a hitch. Just like I’d been playing it regularly. With the other lubricating recommedations it would have stuck, from my prior experience. Or been too loose. Take that for whatever it’s worth.
For cork joints I’m sort of in the organic camp for pragmatic reasons. I use “Doctor Slick” which has natural ingredients, none of which are silicone. It’s more expensive and requires more frequent application than petroleum-based Chap-Stick alternatives, but works better for me. For the metal parts I have no qualms about silicone, having tried the others.