Now I am sure there a are lot of pleople who say forget the tuner and tune to the Box player. I agree with that, but only when one is in a session, there are other uses for a tuner.
Today I discovered that I could set my tuner (a Korg CA-30) to play a note. So I thought I could use this as a drone to help my intonation. It is pretty interesting to do. A lot of people say practice to a tuner to improve intonation, I was never a fan of that as I don’t like to stare at a tuenr while I am playing. This CA-30 is new, I used to ahave the older CA-20 and I decided it was time for a new one, the CA-20 didn’t have the cool drone thingy.
So, anybody else ever do this? It helps keep one’s tuning steady while at home practicing. Of course this may not work for everyone, some people like to watch the arrows move while they play. As for myself, I like to hear the note.
That’s called “playing the tuner,” and if someone uses a tuner that way they are really just learning how play the tuner, not how to play the flute. Using a drone-tone and not looking at the tuner, as you suggest, is a much more useful exercise.
Even then, I think it’s a good idea to stop using the tuner as soon as you’ve gotten used to all the little lip-up/lip-down adjustments you need to do to get your flute reasonably in tune with itself. You don’t want the tuner to be a crutch…your ears will (hopefully) always be available and it’s better to train your ears to hear when your flute is in or out of tune than to rely on a tuner. I’ve never owned a tuner myself and don’t plan on getting one…it’s never been something I’ve found useful.
Brad, you make a good point about stopping use. My post was more directed towards us beginning and intermidate players who find themselves going out of tune at sessions. One advantage to using a drone is it trains your ear to be able to hear when you are out of tune with someone/something else rather than just with yourself. Just because one can play perfectly intune with themself doesn’t mean one can play perfectly intune with the Box player down the street. I never use a tuner while playing with other people I try to tune to them, but there are still those times when I go way out and can’t really hear it myself.
Jack, no, but wait a couple years it wouldn’t surprise me if someone decides to do that.
My tuner, (an Mt9000) cannot. But now that he has two tuners, that would be a fun experiment. I have played the drone in the past to play, but that does bring up the question of equil tempered Vs. the other temperment. I’ll have to post again after re reading some music theory again.
I may be getting myself into hot water here, but after having listened to the four CD’s of the “Wooden Flute Obsession” series a number of times, I have come to the conclusion that there is quite a bit of leadway with regard to intonation in traditional and modern Irish flute playing. The examples of flute playing on the CD’s represent some of the best flute performers in the world. Yet, some of it sounds pretty off pitch to me. It is hard to know whether it is the flutes, the players, or my ears that are the problem. Of course, I am partial to the idea that it is the first two. Another idea is that what seems like a problem to me may not be a problem after all.
I think that rhythm is probably more important than exact pitch in any kind of dance music, like jigs, reels, hormpipes, waltzes, marches, etc. If the beat is good, pitch is of lesser importance. If this is true, playing with a metronome may be more useful than trying to play by looking at a tuner. On the other hand, playing with a drone note may be very helpful, it seems to me.
Yes, I do agree, but there is a point where it stops being weird intonation and is just plain out of tune. Here is what I think, most Trad music comes from Pipers originally so therefor the music was at one point played against a drone. What does that mean? Well it brings up the just vs. equal temperment issue. ITM is a very drone based music.
IMO, trad tunes are meant to be played just and the only people that should play them with equal are some free reed players and fretted string players, they can’t help but play every note at the “perfect” spot. Now, Fiddlers were the ones playing with the Pipers and could compensate for the just intonation the Pipers couldn’t help but play with.
Lets not forget about regional styles. Did you know that Galway Fiddlers like to play F half # instead of just a plain F#?
My point is yes, there is leeway but only to a certain extent. Plus, Flutes that are copied from old Flutes are usually tuned to a just scale anyway. That is not always the case, some makers have changed that.
I’d like to put in a word in favour of “watching the arrows”. I use this occasionally when practising shakuhachi. The shak is notoriously difficult (or “extremely flexible” from another point of view) when it comes to intonation. Watching the arrows is a good way of making sure I maintain a constant unwavering pitch on a long note, especially at the end. Sure, you should be able to hear it, but continual practice can make you become accustomed to an unsatisfactory tone - the tuner can pull you back with an objective assessment of what you are really doing.
An interesting side effect is that the tuner shows up inconsistencies in the notes - on the shak, my Chi is always sharp - irrespective of what instrument I am playing. Now, do I change my embouchure to make it “in tune” by the electronic tuner’s Western tempered scale, or stick with the natural sound of the instrument, given that it is a Japanese scale, not a European one?
I ran into a similar thing with my Irish flute - I tried the tuner to see how well I was hearing the intonation. According to the tuner, one note is a bit sharp (was it the E?) - it sounded Ok to me and others that have heard me play. Maybe it is something inherent to the instrument?
Anyway, the drone sounds like a great idea to me. It is totally in keeping with the modal origins of this music, and anything that helps people play better-sounding music has to be good.
PS My daughter has an electronic metronome (she is a violin, viola and fiddle player). It also has a tuner (it plays a continual drone A, like a tuning fork).
I’ld like to add another exercise to the pot of intonation stew!
Record yourself playing the flute on your computer. Then play it back while running the “Auto Tuner” program. The results can be interesting and educational! Here’s a link to the program: http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~tuner/tuner_e.html This is the same program that Terry McGee has been a proponent of. The more I use this program the more I come to realize its value!
there is a difference between just intonation and out of tune. sometimes pipers do not tune their reeds correctly so its all out of wack, and it sound bad. i’ve never heard it on a commercial recording like that, but i have heard it on videos and session recordings, where naturally a piper cannot take out their reeds and mess around with them.
there is a difference between fiddle out of tune, and flute out of tune. good fiddlers mess around with tuning; when you listen to james kelly’s melodic journeys on a slow downer, thre are times where he doesnt hit certain notes in tune until the very end of the note. the difference is, that he always gets the note at the end. flute players often times just miss the notes. this is because of the nature of all flutes, and the fact that conical flutes are either a.) old and designed to play at another pitch or b.) new and designed to play A and B out of tune to get the C natural cross fingering right.
the “neagh f#” (as i’ve heard it called) is on purpose, again. i dont know very many flute players that play notes out of tune on purpose.
I had tuner for several days before I figured out how to turn the needle on, so I was using it exclusively with the tones. I’m hoping he updates the Mac version one of these months; it doesn’t have the different intonations or anything.
Along the same lines, I’ve been playing my small-holed Noy in C quite a bit. It has a somewhat flat F# that allows for a somewhat sharp Fnat to be cross-fingered. Last night I was playing along with the first set on The Baltimore Consort’s Road to Kilburn (Playford tunes). It has tunes in D, C, and F. As I become more familiar with the tunes, I’m finding that I’m lipping the Fnat into tune more and more. Now it sounds almost perfect relative to the flute, but I’m getting a few beats relative to the viol. The interesting thing is, if I play it to a tuner (arrow or tone), I have a really difficult time blowing it into tune, but in context it’s not so hard.
i thought you did. i just wanted to point out the distinction between purposeful out of tune and playing out of tune because its easier or unavoidable.
edited because i pressed submit instead of preview while checking the quote’s formatting[/i]
set my tuner (a Korg CA-30) to play a note. So I thought I could use this as a drone to help my intonation… anybody else ever do this?
I’ve done it, I used a synth for drone once and also the drone feature on Abcmus. Its a good idea, much better than working with a tuner-needle. We want to match pitch with other players, and a drone will reinforce that sort of thing. I’ve used Terry’s colleague’s tuner to bring down a sharp embouchure by tuning to a G occasionally, but its more what you are doing with the flute than what the tuner is doing.
Assuming your ear is fine, and setting aside the general intonation discussion, I think it has to do with the pitch-memory thing - while paying attention to all sorts of other things* while playing, its just easy enough to forget your starting point. A drone keeps that going for you. Without distractions, your own pitch-memory takes over.
other things, like your notes, or breath control, or getting used to the quirks of the instrument. For example, if you play more than one flute, each will be a little different in the intonation department. Or, if you want to huff on a note, on one flute it will be fine, on another flute you might seesaw way sharp. etc.
I can still go off pitch when learning a new tune and busy with getting it into the fingers. Unless I’m learning it off a piper with the drones on (not usually the way I learn a tune!)
