Tin whistle ornamentation!

Whistle
1

Hello.
I am a newbie to the world of the tin whistle ( having learned the recorder at school for many years!) and a newbie to the forum.
I am sure I am not the first to ask this question and apologies if it has been asked elsewhere on the forum but how!!! HOW do you perform cuts and taps and rolls without sounding the extra note??
Every time I try it sounds like I am playing an extra note. I just can’t seem to get it right. Now I don’t know whether I am lifting my fingers too high or not high enough, or whether I am gripping the whistle too tight. :confused:
Secondly… when to use ornamentation? Do you just practice a piece and decide yourself which ornamentation to use? Or is there a general guide?
I just don’t know… it looks so easy and natural with some players but it’s so difficult to a newbie!!

Many thanks

2

Run don’t walk to the nearest whistle/flute teacher. :open_mouth:

OK, so that might not be possible, but there are some alternatives. By the way, and just to put your mind at ease everyone, and I mean everyone on this forum has asked the same questions at some point in their journey. Really!

If you can’t find a teacher close by, then pick up a good book. There are several, but one of the very best is the Tin Whistle Tool Box by Grey Larsen. L.E, McCullough also has a good one out, and as far as I know it’s still in print. There are plenty or others and I’m sure lots of folks will chime in with their favorites.

Listening to good players helps but the fiddly bits sure go by in a hurry don’t they? Enter Amazing Slow Downer. It’s a software program that will play back music at slower speeds, without changing the pitch, so you can listen to your favorite whistlers and have at least a fighting chance at figuring out what’s going on.

It won’t all happen at once, but it will happen, and the whole process is fun! :thumbsup:

Piper Joe

3

when to use ornamentation?

It’s hard to over emphasise the importance of listening and being in the company of good players. Books may provide an introduction but your real answer lies in the music itself and how good players approach it. This on the assumption you are asking after Irish Traditional Music.

4

Yes to the above—find a teacher locally if you can. If not, look at the online instruction available on YouTube from OIAM and others. And absolutely pick up either Grey Larsen’s Tin Whistle Toolbox or if you think you might also want to learn flute, his Essential Guide to Irish Flute and Tin Whistle. For me, his analysis and detailed, clear instruction on ornamentation far surpass anything else I’ve read, and allowed me to make better sense of what I’m hearing.

5

I should have also pointed out the OAIM online lessons as Jackj did, also check out Skype lessons by Blayne Chastain. He of the Irish Flute Store. He and Deborah are great folks to deal with.

I also should have mentioned that both of the books I mentioned come with CDs so every lesson is not only shown in print but also demonstrated for you, many of them played slow and then at a faster tempo.

You’ve already made one giant step, you’re hangin’ out with this lot. Tons of experienced folks spend time on Chiff and Fipple, some of us more than we probably should, and very rarely is anyone here judgmental.
None of us suffer trolls gladly, but legitimate questions such as yours, are treated gently and respectfully.

So, when you have a question…ask! :poke:

Piper Joe

6

Thank you SO much to each and every one of you who replied. I am very grateful for all your advice!
I have been looking at a few You Tube videos and have found some good guidance there.
I live in Ireland and although it’s hard to believe, Tin Whistle teachers are not found on every corner sadly!
However I will try to find the resources mentioned by you guys. Once again many thanks for all your words of wisdom :heart:

7

Also apologies to Oeorezonator who sent me a PM, sadly I am unable to view this as I am not authorised to read my own PMs!

8

Just learn a couple of hundred tunes and play them well without ornaments or mistakes then come back with your questions. Cheers

9

You are now. :slight_smile:

10

This example may or may not be relevant, since no one irons anymore. But when I used to I’d plug the iron in and spread my item on the board. Then to test if the iron was hot enough I’d touch it lightly with my fingertip. Since neither my brain nor my fingertip was happy with this move, the touch was light and the pick off immediate. I use this illustration when I teach cuts. Think of that particular finger hole as running about 200 F. :slight_smile:

11

Yes the death-grip will slow down the ornaments.

Having relaxed fingers is so important.

I’ve told of the excellent piper I know who told me about him spending practice sessions devoted entirely to practicing playing relaxed. “I don’t care what sounds come out of my chanter. I’m only focused on being tension-free.” He indeed has one of the most relaxed “grips” I’ve seen.

Having cuts sound right requires 1) the cutting finger lifting high enough to make a clear note and 2) being fast enough.

Some people try making their cuts faster by lifting the finger less. Lift the finger too little and your cuts won’t have the clarity they need. Speed in your cuts can only come from practice.

Having pats sound right requires 1) the patting finger fully sealing the hole it strikes and 2) being fast enough.

People coming from “classical” woodwinds tend to keep their fingers close to the instrument. Especially so with Boehm flutes where they’re trained to keep the fingers in contact with the keys to avoid “key noise”.

This results, on Irish woodwinds, with pats that are too sluggish. They lack the “pop” that you want pats to have.

The trick is to lift the patting finger higher (an inch or more) a moment before the pat, which gives the finger the space to accelerate to the necessary speed.

Here’s a little video I did on whistle ornamentation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nfu_fDUyNHs

And this one putting those things into a tune

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35SqhcSojn8&t=16s

12

Ginger,

Buy a case of Guiness, stand on a corner with said Guiness, whistle players will find you! :thumbsup:

Piper Joe

13

I live in Ireland and although it’s hard to believe, Tin Whistle teachers are not found on every corner sadly!

Where in the country are you based?

Going to a summerschool or taking a workshop at a festival should be an option ( for example the Micho Russell weekend l next week has whistle workshops on Sat and Sunday), it’s likely to give you enough to work on for a good while.

14

If you’re really a newbie, I’d say don’t even bother with ornaments at this point. An unornamented tune played well is far better than an ornamented tune played badly. Some of the old timers didn’t use ornaments a lot. As a newbie you have more basic things to get solid at first- breathing,rhythm,etc. It would also help to have some tunes that you can play really well and smoothly before introducing an ornament or two.Patience–learning to play is a journey,not a destination.

15

That sounds like a great weekend. I’m trying convince my friend in Derry to make the trek.

16

Disclaimer: I don’t have near the experience or deep trad connection that some of the guys above me do, so take my suggestions below with a grain of salt.

I like to think of the whistle as made of the thinnest, most fragile glass you can imagine, or like it’s made out of a potato chip (are they called “crisps” over there?). When your finger is in the right place, you need almost no pressure to seal the hole. Learning on my own, I didn’t even realize I was gripping the whistle too hard for years and years, and I’ve started to do what Richard suggested, which is spending time focusing on the light touch, and making sure I don’t have ANY tension in my neck or hands.

For me, I think of cuts, taps, and rolls as rhythmic additions to my playing. Sometimes, on a long, held out note, you can add cuts or taps in time with the beat to spice things up, or leave them out for a different feel. They’re essential for pipers, since you can’t tongue notes. Try playing any tune you like (Twinkle Twinkle Little Star works very well for this exercise) without using your tongue to separate the notes. Just blow a constant stream of air. You will find the places that need cuts or taps to differentiate the notes. Also, cuts can be used to emphasize the start of a phrase (BYAH-da-da-da vs. da-da-da-da, if that makes sense) or to add emphasis in other places. Sliding between notes can also aid in the rhythmic presentation of your tune, especially in combination with the cuts, taps, and rolls.

For ornamentation, you can learn a lot by studying your favorite player performing a short phrase that has a sound you want to replicate, especially if they’re on a high quality video, and you can slow it down (like on YouTube). Study it over and over again until you can figure out what they’re doing with their fingers. Once you’ve figured out and practiced the mechanics, and you start recognizing the sound in other pieces, you’ll be able to use it appropriately in your own playing.

Definitely focus on basics over ornamentation though. If you can’t keep the beat, or an ornament is hurting your playing, simplify it. I’m still working to play more fluidly, and I think it’s partially due to how I learned, which was working on little phrases, and ornaments, often copying a favorite artist, rather than focusing on playing a whole tune simply and successfully.

17

Books, and videos are fine but a live or Skype teacher is much better. There are several listed on the Chiff Instructor list as others have mentioned. My own live teacher at NY Irish Arts Center has returned to Dublin County and gives Skype lessons, which I have also used. She is listed on the “Teachers Wanted/ student Accepted” page under “Offering Flute and Whistle lessons in NY and over Skype!” Her web site has changed to christinadolphin.com