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Whistle
21

I cannot speak for this situation, but I know that skilled tribal leaders are essential for an Indian nation’s welfare. I am a registered voter in the Cherokee Nation, and, in my lifetime, we have seen the Cherokee Nation’s fortunes rise and wane, in direct result of wise and unwise chiefs. The council of elders is important, and especially the principal chief, who represents the nation’s interest before the Federal government, and the public at large, is crucial.

During the 1990’s the Cherokee Nation nearly erupted in civil war due to tribal leadership problems. I knew a number of Cherokee women who, in middle age, lost the only job they’d ever known, at Cherokee Nation Industries, and were unable to find work. Our local tribal office was closed. The people had to travel to other towns for tribal business. And these problems were due to ineffective leadership, which was dealt with in the next Cherokee National election. Under more stable leadership, the Cherokee Nation has begun its recovery.

It is unwise to assume that the tribal leadership, in any nation, is a composite whole, working effectively for its people’s good.

22

Maybe someone should sent a link to the article to the American Indian Movement. http://www.aimovement.org/
jd

23

Remember too, we may be talking about the Navajo here, but as far as I understand it, accounting of ALL tribal monies held in "trust’ by BIA is in the same sorry condition.

There is a real possibility that the money has actually been misappropriated (read: ‘stolen’) by past (or even present) BIA managers. It really isn’t a far leap from reservation agents who stole the tribal allotments to sell for personal gain to bookkeepers that shaved the middle step and just stole the money.

It isn’t just the ‘republicans’ that lost/frittered/stole the funds, although they’re certainly the ones stonewalling attempts to identify and correct the problem.

The ultimate symbol of the USA’s shameful treatment of native Americans has to be Ira Hayes. Memorialized forever on an Arlington Cemetery statue as one of the six marines who raised the flag on Iwo Jima, he drowned in a gutter while drunk after returning to the solicitous care and guidance of BIA.

24

I read a series of old books written in French by Jesuit priests who went from France to what is now Canada. Their comments on Indians were eye-opening. I’ll just say that the Indian has come a long way since then, but it was pretty grim in the dog days.

The white man in his greed tried to enslave the Indians. (Logical decision, since it would have been much handier than shipping people in from Africa.) It didn’t work.

I have a question for Walden and others who might know from experience. Are Indian people lazy by nature?

25

indians didn’t like to work in mines. but that was a complete religious matter. most of them were hunters and gatherers, while the women did a little farming etc… those warriors didn’t like to do womens work. there were no better cowboys though, they liked that work and worked very hard.
if the white people made slaves out of apaches, they always looked for ways to escape, and some of them did. in old mexico, a human being would last about 4 years in the mines.
when u.s. soldiers discovered an apache rancheria, they usualy waited 'till the men left for hunting or raiding. then they attacked and killed about 8 or 9 apaches, they usualy didn’t wright that it were all women and children.
when an apache went hunting for a deer, he only needed one bullet, they had nothing to waist, and they could dodge bullets.
u.s. soldiers couldn’t even wip an apache.

26

Want a chance to rephrase that question, Mongoose?

27

some books tell the bitter truth http://www.fetchbook.info/search_Eve_Ball/searchBy_Author.html

i forgot to mention that in the year of 1885, the army killed not more than 1 apache warrior.

28

Hey, 'Goose:

No lazier than smug white people whose primary goal is to make all other people just like them.

Sincerely,

1/2 Arapaho (and 1/2 Wyoming-descended!) Herbivore, who’s perhaps more surprised and somehow insulted by such poorly informed (if sincere) or maliciously intended and ridiculous questions than he thought he’d be. No wonder things are as they are . . .

Oh, and 'Goose: that means “No”.

29

The ultimate symbol of the USA’s shameful treatment of native Americans has to be Ira Hayes. Memorialized forever on an Arlington Cemetery statue as one of the six marines who raised the flag on Iwo Jima, he drowned in a gutter while drunk after returning to the solicitous care and guidance of BIA.

There was a wonderful movie about Ira Hayes, starring
Tony Curtis as IH, I can’t quite remember the name, but
it may have been the outsider, which followed Ira, a Pima
Indian, through marine boot camp, his deep friendship
with a college student he meets there, the battle on Iwo Jima, the
flag raising, his friend’s being killed by a sniper when
they’re called in to take part in a government public
relations program about the photo of the flag raising,
his grief to near madness, his return to the reservation,
his failed effort to be elected to the tribal council,
and his death due to alchoholism.

In the movie Hayes is lost in boot camp, he’s never
seen showers, he nearly drowns in the swimming pool,
and he’s ridiculed constantly by the college kid.
Finally in town on leave, the other marines try to physically force Hayes to
drink whiskey (it’s illegal for Indians to drink),
and he starts fighting them.
The confident blond college kid knocks him down;
Hayes scrambles up and smacks the college kid
almost unconscious. The kid crawls over to Hayes,
gets up on his knees and says:

‘I’m sorry! Jesus Christ, I’m sorry!’

The others go off and the two young men talk all
night, telling each other about their lives.

The kid needed to be knocked down to realize
that Ira Hayes was a real person. But the movie,
which was detailed and realistic (Ira and his
friend sleep at night in their foxhole in
each other’s arms), did not
portray Hayes as a victim of white people;
his own defects largely brought him down;
why he failed in tribal politics, for instance.
That and the moment when he and his friend
were walking up a hill on Iwo Jima and a photographer said: ‘Hey,
will you help these guys raise this flag? I want
to take a picture.’ Best

30

Gee, i think the real question, mongoose, is whether you’re an ignoramus by upbringing, or is that your own doing?

31

Mongoose, sometimes you just fry me.

Enslaving native Americans didn’t work in part because it was their own turf, they fully lived in it, and so they had an easier time slipping away. Failing that, they often sickened with grief and died. Arguably there were other cultural paradigms coming to bear with this, too: the reported African sense of fatalism may have made it easier for their populations to be used in enslavement. Would you also suggest that Africans might be lazy for being less likely to escape?

Reach into your wallet and buy some couth.

32

I would like to apologize to Walden personally that a thread I started turned into an ugly insult addressed specifically to him. I never thought this thread would turn into something ugly - I thought others would be as angered as I was - that was all.

Susan

33

Certainly, there is no question that the Bush admin. is screwing the Navajos—partly because they think they can get away with it.

Well, the class action suit was filed in 96, and the problem
probably preceded it by some time, so, by your reasoning,
it was mostly the Clinton administration that was
screwing the Navahos. Best

34

The topic is this “OT: Navajos in poverty due to government/oil co. greed”

While this helps to stir the emotions and feeds the popular “anti-government” sentiment it is simply not true - or certainly not entirely true. Walden tried to inject some personal examples of why this might not be true, but seems to have been ignored.

Here is a list of those administrations that have had altercations with the Native American:

  1. George Washington (1732-1799) Federalist
  2. John Adams (1735-1826) Federalist
  3. Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) Democratic-Republican
  4. James Madison (1751-1836) Democratic-Republican
  5. James Monroe (1758-1831) Democratic-Republican
  6. John Quincy Adams (1767-1848) Democratic-Republican
  7. Andrew Jackson (1767-1845) Democrat
  8. Martin van Buren (1782-1862) Democrat
  9. William H. Harrison (1773-1841) Whig
  10. John Tyler (1790-1862) Whig
  11. James K. Polk (1795-1849) Democrat
  12. Zachary Taylor (1784-1850) Whig
  13. Millard Fillmore (1800-1874) Whig
  14. Franklin Pierce (1804-1869) Democrat
  15. James Buchanan (1791-1868) Democrat
  16. Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865) Republican
  17. Andrew Johnson (1808-1875) National Union
  18. Ulysses S. Grant (1822-1885) Republican
  19. Rutherford Hayes (1822-1893) Republican
  20. James Garfield (1831-1881) Republican
  21. Chester Arthur (1829-1886) Republican
  22. Grover Cleveland (1837-1908) Democrat
  23. Benjamin Harrison (1833-1901) Republican
  24. Grover Cleveland (1837-1908) Democrat
  25. William McKinley (1843-1901) Republican
  26. Theodore Roosevelt (1858-1919) Republican
  27. William Taft (1857-1930) Republican
  28. Woodrow Wilson (1856-1924) Democrat
  29. Warren Harding (1865-1923) Republican
  30. Calvin Coolidge (1872-1933) Republican
  31. Herbert C. Hoover (1874-1964) Republican
  32. Franklin Delano Roosevelt (1882-1945) Democrat
  33. Harry S. Truman (1884-1972) Democrat
  34. Dwight David Eisenhower (1890-1969) Republican
  35. John Fitzgerald Kennedy (1917-1963) Democrat
  36. Lyndon Baines Johnson (1908-1973) Democrat
  37. Richard Milhous Nixon (1913-1994) Republican
  38. Gerald R. Ford (1913- ) Republican
  39. James (Jimmy) Earl Carter, Jr. (1924- ) Democrat
  40. Ronald Wilson Reagan (1911- ) Republican
  41. George H. W. Bush (1924- ) Republican
  42. William (Bill) Jefferson Clinton (1946- ) Democrat
  43. George W. Bush (1946- ) Republican

The Navajo’s are not in poverty because of the Oil Companies. That’s just silly but it does ‘preach’ well.

No, the Navajo’s are in poverty for any number of reasons that date back to the United States understanding of Manifest Destiny and they were poor long before there were cars that needed gas.

This is hardly the place to develop a complete thesis on the nature of the “Native American Problem” so I won’t do that. But I do resent the politicizing of a topic this non-partisan and this serious.

Erik

35

This has been going on for years. My anger is directed at those who now realize it and yet refuse to do anything about it, simply put it off or openly add to the problem. The Bush administration didn’t start it - but they’re not stopping it either.

You’re right, Erik, about Walden’s comments being ignored. I meant to make a comment about that but forgot it after reading Mongoose’s post. The Navajo nation has had some terrible leaders in the not-that-far-distant past - a couple I know of wound up in prison. I think there’s more hope for better leaders as those chosen now are frequently better educated and have more leadership experience.

To me, the issue becomes political when there’s a chance to do something about a bad situation and it’s voted on to delay doing anything about it - for years. And oil companies continuing to pump oil when leases have not been renewed is simply wrong - if not outright illegal.

Susan

36

Thanks, Erik. I don’t think politicizing this sort of
thing, or jumping to various conclusions,
serves anybody’s purposes–well, at least not
those of Native Americans.

It would be helpful to know what’s
happened to the class action law suit
filed in 96. Best

37

Susan, you brought up an important issue. Politically charged, yes, but important. No apologies necessary. Walden I am sure has a thick skin and isn’t cowed by the opinions of ill-informed and mis-informed morons, nor should anybody else be.

38

This thread was obviously a mistake. It never entered my mind it would turn into this. I honestly believed others would want to know about such a situation in this country.

I’m asking that no one else post to this thread - and I’ll ask Alan or Dale to lock it if it continues.

Susan

39

Thanks for your clarity and concern. Best, Jim

40

Um…doesn’t anyone talk about WHISTLES here anymore???

Honestly, there are problems in the world alright but is C&F gonna fix them? Can’t we leave this stuff to the umpteen political boards or just write your congressmen and have done? :roll: It’s tiring to keep seeing this kind of thread here over and over. Someone’s always gonna be the ‘bad guy’ and get flamed (probably me now - bring it on) can we save this stuff for a board where it is considered on topic?? PLEASE???

We wouldn’t need to voluntarily close anything if this sort of thread wasn’t posted in the first place…