The Norwegian Affect

[L42B]

As some of you may know in Celtic music there is some influence from the Norse, more so in Scotland more so then Ireland. I’m guessing that’s how Irish music got the Polka and I’m going to take a long-stab with a barge pole and suggest that this may be how Scotland got the strathspey is through norse influence. The strathspey rhythm sounds so alike to that of the Norwegian Hallspringar dance rhythms. It also reminds me of the Galician dance music as well (to some extent). Here is a posting on youtube for those who may be interesting in adding further comments to this theory (or disproving it entirely as the case may be):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRYlBTG-vd4&feature=related

Luke

[colomon]

@L42B

I’m guessing that’s how Irish music got the Polka

Are you basing this theory on anything other than the presence of polkas in both places? Because while I cannot say for sure that the Norse didn’t give the polka to Ireland, the polka spread across pretty much all of “western civilization” within a few decades of its creation. It would have been surprising if it hadn’t ended up in Ireland too…

[djm]

It is more likely the Irish got the polka from Poland, which spread throughout Europe after the Napoleonic era.

You might consider changing your thread title from the verb “Affect”, to the noun “Effect”.

djm

[Cathy_Wilde]

@djm

You might consider changing your thread title from the verb “Affect”, to the noun “Effect”.

djm

I have to admit, the thread title brought to mind a psychiatrist’s paper about a syndrome whose symptoms include aimless, sunshine-deprived circling of a dance floor.

I think I recently read about Poland as the polka wellspring in one of the old O’Neill’s books? Mazurkas are Polish as well.

[Nanohedron]

@Cathy Wilde

@djm

You might consider changing your thread title from the verb “Affect”, to the noun “Effect”.

djm

I have to admit, the thread title brought to mind a psychiatrist’s paper about a syndrome whose symptoms include aimless, sunshine-deprived circling of a dance floor.

I think I recently read about Poland as the polka wellspring in one of the old O’Neill’s books? Mazurkas are Polish as well.

The polka as such originated in eastern Bohemia, not Poland, first publicly introduced to Prague in 1835; the Continent went ga-ga for it in 1840 Paris. Despite the present name, the original was “pulka”, meaning “half-step”. Lore has it that “polka” means “Polish lass”, and if that is so, it would appear to be a corruption of the original, then, and hence the understandable assumption that it was of Polish origin.

FWIW, dance tunes and marches of the 2/4 variety appear to have already been present in the British Isles and Ireland well before the designation of “polka”. The earliest I can find is in Geoghegan’s tutor for the pastoral pipes (1745/1746), a tune under the name of The Mamina. A bit of searching suggests that the 2/4 dance tunes were variously known as “quicksteps” and “two-steps”, among others. These names show some affinity with the idea behind “pulka”, but whether such tunes were altogether introduced from the Continent is anyone’s guess, I suppose, although “mamima” appears to be in the Slavic, or at least Polish, lexicon. Haven’t been able to cough up a translation of that, but the term also shows up from Chile and Turkey, too. Anyway, suffice it to say that “polka” applied well to what was already in place. I’m presuming that the polka’s dance steps themselves were what were really imported by that name into Ireland.

[djm]

@Nano

I’m presuming that the polka’s dance steps themselves were what were really imported into Ireland.

Are you referring to the Chicken Dance? Are you implying the Irish were unaware of the lyrics to The Pennsylvania Polka, etc.?

djm

[Baglady]

@L42B

I’m going to take a long-stab with a barge pole and suggest that this may be how Scotland got the strathspey is through norse influence. The strathspey rhythm sounds so alike to that of the Norwegian Hallspringar dance rhythms. Luke

I have long held this same theory. It began in my mind when I attended a workshop by Katherine Vaten (sp) where she played a Springleik and she said that different players held the second beat longer than other players. The real revelation is in the way the musician taps his feet. Compare a GHPiper tapping out a competition Strathspey and Nordic fiddler tapping out a Spring.

Then I found this entry in the Fiddler’s Companion:

PIPER O’ DUNDEE, THE. AKA and see “The Drummer.” Scottish; Air, Reel or Strathspey. A Dorian. Standard tuning. AABB. The tune can also be played as a reel or a strathspey. See also note under “The Drummer” title, by which it appears in many older collections. The “Piper o’ Dundee” title comes from a song set to the tune in James Hogg’s Jacobite Relics of Scotland (1819-21), which begins:

---

The piper came to our town, to our town, to our town,
The piper came to our town, and he played bonnilie.
He play’d a spring the laird to please, a spring brent new from ‘yont the seas,
And then he gie’d his bags a wheeze, and played anither key.

---

Cho:
And wasna he a rougey, a rougey, a rougey,
And wasna he a rougey, the piper o’ Dundee.

---

I added emphasis.

For me the evidence is mounting toward the ‘most Scottish of tunes’ being very strongly influenced by Norway.

And then the Strathspey becoming a pointed Scottish Reel, and then smoothed out by the Irish to rounded Irish Reel…

Don’t even get me started on Jigs!

I’m thinking this vid shows the ‘Ghost beat’ better. This elongated beat is what a Springleik and a Strathspey have most in common.

<param](http://www.youtube.com/v/fmjXhyEYLDA&hl=en"></param><param) name=“wmode” value=“transparent”>

[Nanohedron]

@djm

@Nano

I’m presuming that the polka’s dance steps themselves were what were really imported into Ireland.

Are you referring to the Chicken Dance? Are you implying the Irish were unaware of the lyrics to The Pennsylvania Polka, etc.?

djm

I will defer to wiser heads in this matter. All I’m sayin’ is that the polka ain’t originally Polish.

As for the mazurka’s Polish origins, I think it’s safe to say that’s beyond any dispute.

Who’s to say that the Norwegians didn’t get the idea for the Hallspringar from the strathspey?

[dubhlinn]

Some very interesting stuff here.

I love playing Polkas and I never let my ignorance of their origins interfere with my enjoyment of the tune.

I know that does not contribute anything to the thread but I just felt a need to mention it.

Slan,
D.

[Nanohedron]

@dubhlinn

Some very interesting stuff here.

I love playing Polkas and I never let my ignorance of their origins interfere with my enjoyment of the tune.

I know that does not contribute anything to the thread but I just felt a need to mention it.

Slan,
D.

The punters seem to like them best of all hereabouts. I feel the need to retell a story: I was at a session (well, it was just two of us for the time being, it being early), and what with the space available, a threesome of older, New Agey-type ladies with their crystals and their hand-dyed garments plunked themselves down right next to us, presumably to be transported all the better, in their close proximity, by the Seltic Vibe. We had just finished with a couple or so of polkas, and the one that appeared to be the Alpha-cailleach asked what kind of tunes they were. “Irish polkas,” said the other of us. She drew herself up, sniffed, and coldly declared, “There ARE no Irish polkas.”

Glad she told me.

[awildman]

The history of civilization as we know it goes back several thousand years. The history of music at least that far. I classify 2/4 tunes as the simplest of dance tunes. As the simplest, they’re most likely the oldest. Which would make them hundreds, if not thousands of years old. With an aural tradition like ours, it’s very difficult to pinpoint the source of relatively modern tunes, much less something that’s been around that long.

And there are always lots of similarities between neighboring countries. Next somebody’s going to claim that sheep farming originated in Scotland because it’s similar to the sheep farming in Ireland.

[djm]

@awildman

Next somebody’s going to claim that sheep farming originated in Scotland because it’s similar to the sheep farming in Ireland.

It is similar, but not because of the natives. Rather, it is a relic of the days when Vikings left sheep at various supply spots along their slave trading routes.

djm

[awildman]

Back to the Norse again. Those boys sure got around, didn’t they? Weren’t they responsible for silk and gunpowder, too?

[Cathy_Wilde]

@Nanohedron

@Cathy Wilde

@djm

You might consider changing your thread title from the verb “Affect”, to the noun “Effect”.

djm

I have to admit, the thread title brought to mind a psychiatrist’s paper about a syndrome whose symptoms include aimless, sunshine-deprived circling of a dance floor.

I think I recently read about Poland as the polka wellspring in one of the old O’Neill’s books? Mazurkas are Polish as well.

The polka as such originated in eastern Bohemia, not Poland, first publicly introduced to Prague in 1835; the Continent went ga-ga for it in 1840 Paris. Despite the present name, the original was “pulka”, meaning “half-step”. Lore has it that “polka” means “Polish lass”, and if that is so, it would appear to be a corruption of the original, then, and hence the understandable assumption that it was of Polish origin.

FWIW, dance tunes and marches of the 2/4 variety appear to have already been present in the British Isles and Ireland well before the designation of “polka”. The earliest I can find is in Geoghegan’s tutor for the pastoral pipes (1745/1746), a tune under the name of The Mamina. A bit of searching suggests that the 2/4 dance tunes were variously known as “quicksteps” and “two-steps”, among others. These names show some affinity with the idea behind “pulka”, but whether such tunes were altogether introduced from the Continent is anyone’s guess, I suppose, although “mamima” appears to be in the Slavic, or at least Polish, lexicon. Haven’t been able to cough up a translation of that, but the term also shows up from Chile and Turkey, too. Anyway, suffice it to say that “polka” applied well to what was already in place. I’m presuming that the polka’s dance steps themselves were what were really imported by that name into Ireland.

Hey, thanks, Nano! That’s intriguing. I was aware of the fact that 2/4 is a very popular meter across many cultures, as is the quick-step/quick-march dance concept (I blame it on the armies), but had always heard “polka” was a variant of “Polska.” So thanks for setting me straight and filling in the gaps.

“Too much of anything is a bad job. But too many polkas is just about right.” – Jackie Daly

P.S. Hi, Dubh!