Hi all
Those of you who had a lot of trad flute
lessons, what do teachers say to you about the tucked-in
position used by McEvoy, Bradley and some others?
It looks un-ergonomic but I can see two reasons for it
and it doesn’t seem to cause any problems when I try it.
It is easier to consistently zone in on a heavy low D.
Is that the main rationale for it? It also makes it easier
to hear yourself in a noisy session.
Ha ha! Love it KKrell! I’m really thinking I might stick with the Tuck,
but I hope it doesn’t wreck my aging body.
Whats “the tucked in position” ? Ive never heard of it.
Ballygo
Hello Hup, you raise an interesting conundrum. Not too long playing myself, and not having any formal lessons, I bought an excellent book " The Essential Guide to Irish Flute and Tin Whistle " by Grey Larsen. The author dedicates a whole chapter on holding and blowing the flute. Here’s what he has to say on " Resting The Flute On The Shoulder - A Painful Posture."
" Some Irish flutists rest the end of the headjoint on their shoulder. This position causes them to keep to keep their left shoulder unnaturally raised and their neck twisted and tilted severely to the left. It contorts their spine and constricts their air passages. I suppose it is one way, though a poor one, to compensate for not having found a suitable way to establish the T1
anchor point , for the weight of the flute is instead born by the left shoulder, which also provides opposing force to the lower jaw. "
By T1 anchor point he is referring to your top thumb and bottom joint of your index finger - that nearest the head. ( your left hand if your a right handed player and vica versa ). I think he is implying that if you get this cradle grip between thumb and lowest joint on index finger right right, you should not feel the need to support the weight of the flute with your shoulder. I hope I’ve made all that clear, having read this comprehensive tome, I have the greatest respect for this man’s views on all things flute/whistle related. Definitely worth consideration.
Having said all that, I saw Mike Mc Goldrick give nothing short of a fantastic flute performance the other week employing the exact same technique as others you mentioned without any noticeable problem. Puzzling Isn’t It !
Francois Baubet plays this way as well…there seem to be quite a few players using this technique but you don’t hear of them changing it due to health issues. I’m thinking if it works for you, go with it.
I think part of what this posture does is it makes the player blow more directly into the embouchure without having to turn the headjoint any. You’re essentially blowing straight down!
Eric
Teachers generally advise against it, FWIW.
I can’t see any. I just think it’s bad, full stop (period), notwithstanding its use by some great players I enjoy listening to but can’t bear to watch!
If it is ‘bad’, why would people like Conal O’Grada do it? I need better arguments!
Confused muscle memory response can lead to spilled Guinness. Or is that another kind of " Session. "
From An Fheadog Mhór (p96):
‘I started doing this after meeting flute-player Peg McGrath when I was just setting out playing flute at the age of about 12. She was fierce nice to me and very encouraging. I promptly copied her on the spot and have had the flute on my shoulder ever since.’
He goes on to acknowledge that it may be unergonomic and injurious, but hasn’t bothered him personally. So who knows whether he’d have been (even) better without it, but no argument in the world could persuade me to do something that curious experimentation proves to be hideously unnatural, tension-inducing and harmful to my playing in every way!
Another vote against it. I mean, if you are considering what approach to use, the more ergonomic, the better. Playing an instrument is an inherently physical activity, so it makes sense to do what’s best for the body.
I’m not going to argue about the quality of music produced by the ‘tuckers’ mentioned above, but of all the aspects of their playing from which to draw inspiration, their posture ain’t it.
This is silly.
There are outstanding players who play “tucked” and equally many, if not substantially more, who play in a natural, ergonomic position. Clearly it’s possible to play Irish flute well in both positions.
The relevant questions are really:
The most important question, really, is why would you choose to play “tucked”, in such a bad position for your body, when you can play with equally good tone and finger-technique while in a good, healthy, ergonomic “untucked” position?
Yes, there are a number of great players who play “tucked”, but this is a matter of (bad) habit, and they could almost certainly play just as well if not better “untucked” if they spent a little time to retrain themselves to do so. Just because some great flute players do play “tucked” doesn’t mean they benefit from it.
Copying bad habits is not going to help you become a better flute player.
Just for your enjoyment, here are some clips of some great players who play with excellent form “untucked”:
That’s just a start. Enjoy your music.
Maybe it feels that way for you now, but there’s no logical reason why this should be the case moving forward. If you can play a strong low D “tucked” you should be able to play a strong low D “untucked”, and if you can’t then you just need to practice.
I’d love to see a PhD study titled “Low D strength of Irish traditional flute players tucked vs untucked - an evidence based analysis.” 
What better argument than what Conal O’Grada thinks about this way of holding a flute ? He always says that he’s not a good example of how to hold a flute. And he always try to teach the good way.
Any specialist physiotherapist about musicians’ posture will say the same. And any good teachers too.
In his excellent book Hammy Hamilton advises beginners to follow the classical teaching of holding the flute and writes that “bad habits can cause havoc later on”.
One reason some people may choose to play using this hunched, tucked-in posture is because it reduces the stretch across the body by the upper (typically left) hand. You can feel this yourself if you adopt the hunched/tucked-in posture and then gradually open up into the more commonly recommended “good” posture. As you open up, you find that your upper hand has to rise and stretch across your body. This increased stretch can be a significant issue for people who have limited mobility in their shoulder, or muscle imbalance or weakness that makes it difficult to hold the upper hand high and far across the body for long periods of time. This problem can be exacerbated when playing a low Bb flute, which has an even longer stretch.
A natural reaction to these issues can be to make yourself feel more comfortable by moving the whole flute closer to that top hand shoulder by rotating and lowering the head toward that shoulder. I think this is probably the most common reason for the tucked-in posture, rather than trying to actually support the flute on the shoulder. But of course, I have no quantifiable evidence to back up this claim.
I ran into this issue myself recently after suffering a left shoulder separation in an accident. It has taken my left shoulder over a year to heal (its still not healed) and during that time the only way I have been able to play comfortably is by tucking in, hunching and twisting more toward that side. Over the relatively short time I have been doing this I have developed some discomfort in my neck, which just goes to support what others have said above. Don’t get into bad habits!
So what I am saying here does not contradict what has been said earlier. I’m just saying that there may be a legitimate reason for initially preferring this “bad” posture, and it may be physically uncomfortable and seemingly unergonomic (for your body) to play in a “good” posture, but the real fix is probably to address the underlying problem that makes a good posture uncomfortable for you. If you do not approach it that way, the long term effects of a bad posture may catch up with you, and then you will have even more problems to deal with.
– Jon
Its an easier position for a kid who is not really big enough for the stretch of playing flute. When I started in 4th grade I tended to do that, but my teachers broke me of it.
Great discussion! I’m not trying it because it’s easy or healthy or [xxxx] does it, I’m trying it to
see if I can get better results that way. I’ll try standing on my head too if that works 
Hup:“I’ll try standing on my head too if that works 
” Um, you might try long tones Or even Hammy’s descending exercisee from first octave A.
It is folk music, so anything that works, works. . .but good embouchure training might save you a very wry neck 
I never had this problem since I started as a little tad on Boehm flute. But I did have to studiously develop my embouchure for wooden flute.
Bob