Superglue lip area coating

I can’t find my original on the subject, and since I’ve posted it here several times, I’m wondering if anyone has it archived as I need to pass it on to a friend. I can write it up again, of course, but it occurs to me we ought to post it here one more time (under a proper heading) so that others can easily find it in the future.

TIA,

Loren

From: john skelton

Date: Thu, Sep 19, 2002, 7:02am
To: woodenflute@woodenflute.com
Subject:Problems with Cocus Wood

Hello,

I have received several emails recently asking for my advice about Cocus Wood allergies. I thought that it might be helpful to some of you if I posted my thoughts and experiences on this list.

I received a new Cocus headjoint from Patrick Olwell about two years ago and played it with no ill effect for about six months. Then, I began to notice slight swelling and redness around my chin. I suspect that the shop finish had worn away and I was now in direct contact with the wood. Unfortunately, this happened at the start of a very busy time … I was teaching at five summer schools back to back and was on tour in Europe for six weeks, in other words, I was playing six or seven hours a day for two and a half months. Consequently, I developed quite a serious reaction.

At the time, I thought that it was just a minor problem and that if I used loads of oil on the headjoint, things would sort themselves out. Wrong! By the end of the summer things were getting serious ( by this point I was using self adhesive plastic film around the embouchure). I stopped playing for several weeks until my chin and lip had cleared up. I started to play again (this time on an ebonite flute) and within minutes the reaction had started again.

After many experiments with various kinds of self adhesive plastic and paint-on finishes, I have discovered one technique that works (I have been using it for a while now, with no sign of a reaction). I have to thank Rod Cameron for suggesting this to me:

You will need to practice on some wood first (to get used to the glue and so on).

  1. Clean the area you are going to finish with acetone (to remove grease and dirt).

  2. Mask out the area … the shape of your choice ( I used ordinary scotch tape … make sure that the edges are well down, or else the glue will wick underneath).

  3. Using a Q tip, paint the area with super glue. Do NOT use the gel type, use the ‘runniest’ you can find. Be careful that it doesn’t run into the embouchure. Paint along the grain. This is where the practice is important. Some brands of Q tip lose their ‘fluff’ more than others, so find ones that stay together the longest. You probably won’t be able to paint the whole area in one go (as the glue will start to set up and drag the Q tip) … so do it in sections.

  4. If you are not happy with the finish, rub it down with super fine steel wool and go over it again. (You’ll have to remove the masking to rub down ).

  5. When you are satisfied, (and the glue is dry) wipe over the area with acetone.

  6. Make up a “polish” by soaking an area of paper towel with raw linseed oil (NOT boiled) and then squeeze a few drops of super glue on this. Use this mixture to rub down the area.

  7. After this has dried, peel back the tape and oil around the rest of the headjoint (the tape will have lifted some of the old oil off). You’ll have a clear finish.
    I did not find self adhesive plastic to be much help. Eventually the edges begin to lift and these in turn irritate the skin. It’s also quite difficult to lay it down smoothly without small bubbles and creases, which in time wear and cause irritation.

A silver lip plate would be a possibility (although I’ve seen a number of these plates that have lifted) but for the moment this works for me.

It would be very easy to dimiss the allergy (it only seems to affect 5 to 10% of people), but if you begin to show signs and ignore it (as I did) , you could become so sensitive, that any material against your chin would cause a reaction. Frank Claudy (who is a fine flute player as well as a doctor) was helpful in explaining this allergy to me. It seems that the biggest worry is that if you carry on ignoring it, it could turn systemic. You could then find your fingers covered in blisters! (or any other part of your body that comes in contact with your flute).

I hope that I haven’t bored you ‘non-cocus’ people. I played an (old) cocus wood flute for twenty five years, so this has all been quite a shock!

Best wishes, John

PS I’m thinking of getting someone to make me a flute out of one of the enormous poison ivy vines that grow here. It couldn’t be any worse, could it?


I saved it to try and help a friend who had an allergy to his blackwood fife. Meanwhile, Ted Wilson made him a polymer head joint. Personally I prefer wood, so I saved John’s letter. It was from woodenflute, though, not here. Still, I think it was in answer to your situation, Loren, so it probably is the item you were thinking of.

Jim

Thanks Jim :slight_smile:

On second glance, that looks exactly like the instructions I got from John via direct e-mail, and then passed on here on C&F (and also on wooden flute at one point as well). Glad you saved John’s original posting, and thanks again for digging them up for me!

All the best,

Loren

It didn’t work for you, did it? I know you mentioned that you ended up selling your flute for more pressing reasons than allergy, but I thought following these directions didn’t help.

But I might recall incorrectly, certainly!


Stuart

Stuart, the answer to your question is…Yes…and no.

Applying the Cyanoacrylate around the embouchure hole didn’t completely solve the problem, but it did make a huge difference. Originally I would have a itching, burning, redness and swelling where ever the flute touched my skin. Post superglue the problem that remained is that I had one specific area, right at the corner of my mouth (an area that didn’t touch the flute regardless), that would still react severly whenever I’d play the cocus flute. I could lay the flute down for a month, have absolutely no problems, then pick it up and within two days I’d have the same reaction in the same spot.

Most of the people I’ve spoken with who have used the cyanoacrylate coating have had 100% success, so I seem to be the exception to the rule. I spoke with John Skelton in person last week and he is still symptom free. Which reminds me…

Something I learned from John (after I sold my flute) is that he went ahead and coated the inside of the embouchure hole, as well as the entire driver’s side (non-blowing) edge. This is something I didn’t do as I was inordinately concerned that anything inside the embouchure hole might negatively impact the flute’s tone or playability. Well, after hearing John play his flute from just a few feet away, I’m convinced there is little or no impact if the coating is applied properly.

This leads me to wonder if the fact that I left about .5-1mm of the near side edge superglue free is what caused my continued, but lessened, reaction. If so, I will have sold I particularly good flute needlessly :angry:

Well, now that I am also allergic to blackwood (thanks to that damn cocus), I guess I’ll get the chance to test my theory on the next blackwood flute I come across.

Of course the fact that I’ll be turning Blackwood on a regular basis may complicate things a bit… :confused:

At any rate it would seem, based on the feedback I’ve been able to gather, that this super glue treatment is an excellent solution or alternative for most people.

Loren

You’ll be turning blackwood on a regular basis? Do tell.

And, if you react to blackwood flutes, you absolutely MUST wear an N-95 mask when you turn blackwood regardless of the dust evacuation system your employer might have. Absolutley. If you were to inhale the dust, in a person like you who gets a skin reaction from the turned wood, well, let’s just say you might have a fatal asthma attack. N-95 at least, but I think it would probably do the trick. N-95 plus a good extraction system would be good.

Stuart

Top Secret, you know what I’d have to do if I told you…

Yeah, I turned blackwood non-stop for a few hours last week, and about halfway through (wood dust and chips flying everywhere, even with the extractor going) I thought "yeah, I’m a real genius: I’ve got my hands and arms covered, but I’m not wearing a mask - and me with no Epinephrine handy :astonished: Needless to say I survived, but I do need to be more careful in the future.

Loren

Ah! Loren, does this mean that we might find your name among the great flute makers at some time in the relavitely near future? :boggle:

Hey Loren, did you remove the superglue when you sold your Olwell? If so how did you do it?

I don’t want to make any predictions, too much pressure. Besides, if there’s one thing I’ve learned the hard way over the last couple of years, it’s that one never knows what the future holds.

Loren

Nope, the buyer decided he wanted me to leave it on. The job was quite professionally done (I practiced a good bit on a maple dowel before doing the Olwell), very smooth and virtually invisible from any distance.

I did test a couple of times (on the Olwell) to see how removable the film would be (5-6 coats of super thin cyanoacrylate as I recall), and it basically just peeled off with firm pressure, once you get an edge up.

Which reminds me, for those who would go the superglue route: One of the tricks to getting a durable and professional looking finish is to make certain you don’t overlap your masking tape very much with the glue as you apply each coat, othewise when you go to remove the masking tape you will get a bit of a ragged edge on your superglue coating, which can then catch and pull off all or part of your work.

Another way to deal with this issue might be to brush a little acetone over the area of the masking tape where the superglue overlaps, but you might have to be careful to make sure the acetone doesn’t cause some ugly breakdown in the masking tape. I used scotch type transparent tape for masking, and found it to work quite well, but I didn’t test it’s ability to withstand acetone, so proceed at your own risk…

Cocus finishes more smoothly than Blackwood, and seems a bit more oily (especially when newly turned) so I don’t know if superglue will be as easy to remove from Blackwood as it is from Cocus.

Loren

Loren,
Another trick for preventing things, such as superglue, from sticking to wood where you don’t want it to stick is to apply paste wax. Johnsons Paste Wax always works well. If you use masking tape to frame in your superglue lip plate with a small line of paste wax drawn along the tape-to-glue edge you will avoid pulling up the superglue when you remove the tape. This will also help to prevent a ragged edged super glue lip plate.

I haven’t tried it but I suspect that any urethane wood finish can be used in place of superglue. There are even a few food grade finishes available, such as Arm-r-SEAL (same company that makes SEALACELL), that would give a nontoxic barrier between the player and the flute. Several light coats of Arm-r-SEAL can be applied with light sanding (320 or finer grit sand paper) between coats.

Arm-r-SEAL and other food grade urethane finishes are designed for finishing/sealing wooden bowls, spoons…

SEALACELL is a Tung oil-urethane that actually penetrated the wood slightly to seal and protect. Arm-r-SEAL is a top coat that won’t penetrate into the wood, althought I doubt that either finish would penetrate into dense oily woods like Cocus and Blackwood. I’m sure there are other similar products out there that would serve just as well.

A guy at our session glued his Olwell to his face. He put Cyanoacrylate around the embouchure hole and couldn’t wait for it to dry, had to play a tune, and now has an Olwell Bb permanently stuck on his face, bummer. This was about three weeks ago. We have to plug the finger holes and pour soup down the barrel otherwise he’d probably stave to death, poor chap.

Loren,

Did you use super glue on the sensitive corner of your mouth? :laughing: Seriously, I know players who use a skin coating on sensitized spots while playing. Like frostbite, once sensitized it seems to stay that way.

Ted