Got here late in this one, so maybe I can help you (and others) understand why. I posted it for two reasons-for those who enjoy low whistle primarily, and also because Talbert asked. Simple as that. I did not listen to the whole clip-just started it and I didn’t care for the car version, compared to his CD version, so I didn’t listen any farther. I never thought for one moment if it was correct or not-just in case someone might enjoy hearing it. I do not have any connection to Talbert St. Clarire, other than a historical one here-and from buying a whistle way back when from him-and it wasn’t a positive outcome. But that was then, and now is now, and I just figured letting bygones be, and moving on from there.
Now, I don’t have the trad ear like Nano and MT have, nor do I profess to be otherwise blessed or cursed. I just come from a low whistle viewpoint, and play mostly just to hear the low tones that please me. I’ve been mostly an improviser in the past, but also pick up a tradional tune here and there when it sounds great to me on the low whistle (and just so you know, May Morning Dew isn’t one of the tunes I play). I’m also not a stickler for correctness in tune playing, as I don’t have the hardwiring capabilities it seems, as I am “blessed” with some form of ADD that keeps me from learning note for note tunes unless I have to (and I don’t). So I am no judge to what is correct or not in any musical form or tradition. I play for me, and my sanity, that’s where I begin and end. The cats don’t seem to mind anymore, though I won’t claim it for the wife.
I took Nanohedron’s post differently than he meant, apparently (gee, big surprise-it’s the internet folks!), so I’m sorry for that, Nano, now that you’ve made that perfectly clear. And I know of MT’s prowess in knowing what is and isn’t in a tune, so no argument there.
So, I’m fine with that, and can see that if you’re learning the tune, for tradional purposes, then Talbert’s isn’t the one you want. And that leads to the questionable validity of the tutorial-it then seems just to become a tribute to how TSC plays it-and if that’s your meat, then so be it. Far be it for me to mince words over it. 
Of course, if I had thought on it a little while longer, I may have come to the conclusion to post this in the Youtube thread, where it wouldn’t have been so headlined as it tends to be in the more prominent forums. Given the history of the branches that were bent in the past by the subject, that might have been better there, than fodder here.
It’s certainly true that I took up the whistle to play Irish trad and I think of it as an Irish trad instrument.
Though I do Church gigs and studio gigs at which the music being played isn’t Irish trad, the idea of hiring a guy to play uilleann pipes and whistles is to evoke an Irish trad sound.
When I hear somebody coming to the whistle from a completely different musical viewpoint, such as the guy who plays whistle in the Pirate band at Disneyland (he’s a professional singer and plays the whistle in what might be called a jazz/pop style), it strikes me as somehow inappropriate. Ditto when I hear somebody playing on the uilleann pipes or Highland pipes who knows nothing about the traditional stylistic devices normally associated with those instruments, but plays the chanter as he would a saxophone.
Coming from the viewpoint I do, I wouldn’t think it at all inappropriate for the whistle forum to be moderated by trad players.
(here’s the guy at Disneyland, who makes his living playing whistle)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1oExEpt5qg
(here’s what it sounds like when a very good professional saxophone player teaches himself how to play the bagpipes)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkedCZ8OXTw
(here’s what it sounds like when a very talented young man is brought up with top-notch instruction)
I feel the same way. The playing style and embellishments have arguably been optimized over the years for that instrument, and ignoring them in my opinion ignores the full potential of the instrument. For example, when I play Harlem Nocturne on my 8-key, I use cuts, rolls and cranns just like on any other tune. Granted, the rhythm and inflection will be different, but I see no reason to deviate from the core articulations of the instrument. I feel a lot of people use the excuse “Oh, I don’t play Irish music” as a deflection from learning the skills associated with the instrument regardless of genre.
I think you nailed it there, Madman. Michael McGoldrick or Brian Finnegan, or for that matter a lot of players of other instruments like Sharon Shannon, can branch creatively out into other directions because they have proven their chops on their instrument, and their understanding of the ITM form in an absolutely irrefutable and irreproachable way. That’s why I accept electronic keyboards in Altan’s music - not just that they use them in (IMO) a tasteful textural unobtrusive way, but because they are ITM musicians of very high caliber and have proven their understanding of the form over and over.
That said, there are other bands who I think use keyboards and/or other rock-band instruments obtrusively and tastelessly, and to the point where their use obscures the ITM form completely - I think here of Clannad. And when things come to e.g. an Afro-Celt Sound System, all I hear is the glaringly uncreative lust to get recorded by consciously jumping on a music-industry labeling bandwagon.
When I first moved to Vancouver in 1990 as a bright-eyed young(ish) percussionist looking for opportunities my home town didn’t offer, someone I was playing with once asked me if I wanted to make my mark by “doing something really creative.” I shocked them by simply saying “no.” I said that if I wanted to play the music of another culture - which is what we were doing at the time - I had to learn that music inside and out before I would consider mutating it with my “creativity.” I still feel that way after all these years, and in fact I accept that I will never learn enough about ITM to want to impose “my vision” on it: it is a lifetime’s work and I am perfectly happy with that. I didn’t have the education of a Finnegan or Shannon, and possess no such vision or ambition. What I do possess is humility in the presence of my musical betters - a disappearing commodity in Western culture as any episode of “American Idol” will prove. Taking another culture’s instrument - whether it’s whistle or kora or Hardanger fiddle or whatever - and saying you’re making that culture’s music by noodling on it, or adding electric guitars or rapping over it, is an insult to that culture.
“Creativity” is up there with “love” as one of our culture’s most abused words IMO, and coming in for a bit of scorn from people with a genuine love and understanding of another culture’s music is no more or less than anyone deserves for buying into the music industry’s definition.
Not sure I’d agree the ornamentation used is connected to the instrument as such. It’s a way of embellishing tunes across a range of instruments used in the Irish tradition and as such above all connected to that music.
To be honest I am more surprised by people proclaiming they don’t play Irish music who then want to learn the full complement of rolls, cranns and the rest.
Thank you Pancilpiper, there’s nothing like REAL illumination; if a picture is worth a thousand words, that comparison was priceless.
When I was young I loved R&B, soul, rock, especially amazing guitar riffs and the rhythm section. I later discovered IT and was so drawn to it that I actually have cds of just pipes. People who laugh at the music say things like “oh you like that funeral music?” Yes, I do, makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. Others say, “oh you like that ice cream truck music?” referring to the whistle. Just things to ignore. I’m an American who took up whistling when my daughter was born for something to do while I was with her (she’s 25 now). Later I studied with Bill Ochs for some direction in how the whistle can be played to get the most joy and best quality playing I could reach. I went back and forth and it’s only been amateur hour for me. This music is so difficult to learn to play really well and yes really properly if that’s what you want to, which is what I want to do. Attaining the lilt, some speed, learning breathing and breath control, learning the conventions first and then perhaps bending them a bit, learning to read first staff and now ABC notation (with Mary), by ear, maybe putting something unique of you in it, is a steep mountain to climb, especially if not a young Irish child who may have heard this music every day from birth; but it has brought me such incredible joy. I’m 65 now and registered for an Irish week class of lessons, jamming, shows, etc in WV in July. It’s a chance for me to open up on this wonderful instrument in a sort of immersion way.
I was and am drawn to the great players and the best players here who yes are IT players and that’s what I happen to love. I don’t begrudge anyone wanting to do something else on the whistle, but it seems to me that one should expect a strong IT slant in discussions of the music on this Board. There’s a reel called The Ashplant which I play and I recently heard on YouTube a bluesy somewhat less than IT version and loved it, so I started playing it on my Copeland G which is throaty raspy and jazzy and that’s great fun too.
Richard, I love your three versions of traditional diversity. Or is it diverse traditionalism. Or is it adaptability out of the the box.
Mack
This whole iTrad vs everyone else discussion leaves people like me feeling vastly inadequate. I play fairly well, but my ornamentation stinks. I’m practicing, but my ‘style’ is never going to be ‘good enough’. You know? I’m just another American trying to play Irish Traditional Music.
I waver between “I gotta try harder and practice more!” to “Screw it - I’m playing what I like.”
Don’t take this the wrong way, sherrie, because what follows is intended to be helpful. But your statement is a contradiction, at least if you’re talking about Irish trad (as you said).
The ornamentation in this music is not “ornament”, and it’s not extra. It’s the articulation: the way you play the notes. And what you’re saying is that you play fairly well but you can’t play the notes properly. 
Trying harder and practicing more won’t help if you’re not working on what you can’t do.
I’d suggest a change of mindset. Stop telling yourself “I play fairly well”. That will only hold you back. Tell yourself, “My playing stinks because my ornamentation stinks”. Then work on it. Why should your style never be good enough? Everyone who is good wasn’t good at some point, and had to work to train fingers and ear. I speak from experience. Then, as Mr. G. might say, someday you’ll be good yet.
This is exactly what I mean.
My playing does not stink, because I can actually keep rhythm, tell when I’m out of tune (oh god people listen to yourself) and how to play in a group without causing problems.
The idea that if I don’t slur, tongue, roll or tap as is prescribed by someone else is awful. Isn’t it about enjoying yourself and making music? That being said, I’m trying to work those things in, I’m just not there yet. It’s like knowing how to draw a figure, but haven’t managed to draw just like Picasso (and his students) yet.
It is very difficult to be a beginner on this forum and not feel discouraged.
Not trying to hijack, but this is definitely one of the ‘unwritten’ currents on this forum.
OK, sherrie, my apologies. I’m sorry for trying to offer constructive advice to a stranger. I’m sure your playing is great. Carry on doing what you’re doing. Ornaments are silly, so don’t worry about them. Warm and fuzzy is what’s it’s all about. I hope that’s less discouraging. Good luck! Next.
(But sometimes it is very difficult to be an experienced player on this forum and not feel discouraged.)
Smooth move, sherrie. Personally I have a difficult time accepting that my playing is good enough I don’t need to work on the things I haven’t yet learnt (though it obviously bothers me) but instead focus only on my achievments. Rather I should accept my own playing w/out judgement.
A beginner on this forum? A beginner whistle player?.. You say you play fairly well, good rhythm etc. So you’re new (a beginner) to the forum? If you play fairly well et al, you’re free play whatever you feel like playing. But, if a beginner whistle player, back-up a little and enjoy the advice you are being given. It’s free and it has great value!
The thing is, it’s traditional music, so things are handed down and carried on. Even if it weren’t, there are still norms and standards for any style of music.
Enjoying yourself and making music are good things, but dues have to be paid to get good at it.
I can relate. The plus side of it is though (after it finally got through my skull) there are a lot of experienced players who do want to help us relative newbies to ITM/tin whistle.
Great skills to have Sherri, and you are to be congratulated for having them. But, playing in any tradition requires an understand of the requirements of the tradition. It is that understanding that shapes the music and makes it live, and that is as true for the classical violinist approaching a Bach piece as it is for an Irish Trad player approaching Kesh Jig. Also true in both those traditions is that the rules are generalities. No fine violinist approaches the details of the Bach by slavishly copying others. No player of Irish Trad does that with their tradition either.
And, I don’t think anyone here suggested you should precisely copy someone else. What they said is the the “ornaments” in Irish Trad are part of the style, and not an add on. They did not say everyone does it the same way. You grow into it by learning the skills and then listening a lot and trying to add things where they make sense to you. It sounds to me as though you are doing that. Great. Don’t be discouraged, do listen to these folks, you’ll soon figure out which ones to listen to and which to ignore. It will help you down the road…
I still consider myself a beginner to the Irish trad music, since I’ve only been playing it and intently listening to it for under two years. It can be discouraging anyway, apart from what anyone says on this forum. There’s so much to learn.
Even so, I regard the opinions expressed here, whether gently or stridently, as a resource. I have my own opinions, but I learn things from what others say, even when I disagree. To take one example: I’m not inclined to try to tongue every note, as some do who come to the whistle from certain other instruments. But here on C&F I read a number of comments directed at new players, suggesting they try playing tunes in a completely legato style, interrupting the flow only to take a breath, just as an exercise. This seemed like an odd thing to me, since I didn’t think I’d every actually play a tune that way. And in fact I don’t play tunes that way, but I do find it a very valuable exercise for getting the “flow” of a tune into my head. Then I can use tonguing or other ornaments to phrase it the way I want.
Sometimes things people say here cause me to look at the music, or the whistle, a little differently. This is good.
Personally, I do sometimes try to copy the way someone else plays a tune, exactly, just so I can feel what it’s like to play it that way. I learned “Fig for a Kiss” by copying the playing in [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C87kcQeXL0cthis video[/url], because I love the way she uses the little bursts of staccato to accent the tune. I play it differently now, but I can try to use that same technique in other tunes. I hope.
Threads like this make me glad I’m mostly interested in playing Scottish music on tin whistle. It’s common enough to be part of the tradition, but rare enough that no one seems to care much about how you do it. 
Interesting someone upthread mentioned violinists and Bach. There is a Russian violinist name Gringolts or some such. He recorded some of the Bach solo works and made a point of not listening to other violinist’s approaches. There is no big tradition of playing Bach in Russia. What he ended up with is a very non-traditional recording, but I like it a lot. My wife, a violinist, says it’s all wrong. 
This strikes at the heart of something that comes up often in the Irish Traditional Music scene here in the USA.
I don’t want it to come off like an attack on anybody! And I’m struggling with just how to word it.
When I began trying to play the uilleann pipes, flute, and whistle, I came to it with the understanding/assumption that I was completely ignorant, and moreover an outsider. I did my best to discover how the people within the tradition played, and copy it as best I could. I tried to be a blank slate. I accepted everything ‘the old guys’ did at face value. These guys were the tradition and embodied what I was attempting to emulate. The last thing I could imagine was to try to impose my own preconceived notions upon what I was hearing. When I was asked to teach workshops I was always very careful to distinguish between “me” and “they” as in “this is the way you’ll usually hear them do this” rather than “this is the way I do this”. The latter would be presumptive; I can never be a true part of the living tradition. I would have to be raised in Ireland, in a musical milieu, for that.
So I found it strange and shocking to run into Americans who played Irish music who took a completely different attitude: that they, not the tradition, knew best; that any aspect of the tradition could be ignored or changed; that in fact the tradition had defects that a clever American could fix. This first struck me, many years ago, when I attended a workshop given by a famous player well known to everybody here (who shall be nameless). He said he didn’t care how traditional Irish players did things, that on his own he invented better ways. And he has a book out which purports to teach “traditional Irish ______” !
Thing is, there’s a deeply ingrained suspicion of tradition here. The very thing said above, “as prescribed by somebody else”, is the very heart of it. How dare anybody tell me how to play! I’m free to do what I want! Thing is, it’s not ‘somebody’, it’s a tradition. You can either choose to play traditional music, or not.
Rant over! Sorry.
Well, let’s stir the pot briskly and bend the rules. Here’s a couple of my favorite whistle tunes, trad or not, ornamented or not, and if they could just get rid of all those other (ornamental) instruments, I’d prefer a whistle solo!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODm6SYw1bsY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWj034v0TvE
There are other tunes as well. Enjoy! 