I would like one day to sign up for workshops and such. When registering, I have to sign up for beginner or intermediate.
What kinds of things are typically taught at “beginner” workshops at a tionol?
What would be a list of skills expected of an intermediate player for those classes?
Thanks-
Dave Jones
I saw something recently on the website of one of the US based clubs which defined an intermediate as someone who knows at least 20 tunes and can play them with at least some ornamentation. Less than 20 was considered beginner.
I think it’s a fairly loose definition. Unless you’re a real beginner (no pipes, just received pipes but don’t know how to assemble them, can assemble them but got finger stuck in blowpipe, etc), I think you’re better off signing up for intermediate classes.
Depends which side of the ocean you are on, for one thing, and who else is in the class, for another. Over here in the States, if you have been playing for less than a year and have only a few tunes, playing hesitantly, you are probably a beginner. Two to four years, playing a variety of tunes slowly but steadily, with some ornamentation, probably intermediate. Typically, at the start of a class, you go around the circle and each piper plays a tune. Once an instructor hears what you can do, he or she will probably let you know whether you are in the right level. You’ll probably be able to judge, too, from the way others in your class play.
Class content in beginner classes is entirely up to the instructor – some focus exclusively on scales and technique, while others teach a tune.
As an experiment, log in to Mick Coyne’s website and try (or listen to) some of the exercises and tunes in the beginning and intermediate practice rooms. If nothing else, it’s one way to judge where you might be.
KAD
Still beginner, just slightly up the beginner ladder.
Intermediate I would label someone who could play all the tunes and ornaments in the H.Clarke tutor and has a decent repertoir of popular session tunes which they can play with ornamentation but tunes still sound straight forward with no real distinguishing features.
Advanced is when a piper is starting to explore beyond tunes and ornamentation into issues of colour, phrasing, variation - both pre-arranged and on-the-fly - aiming for a unique sound on the basis of their chanter work alone without the need for fancy regulator work.
Just my own thoughts anyway.
Cheers,
DavidG
Beginner:
Intermediate:
Advanced:
Patrick.
I see it more as -
Foundation:
Very little technique
A few tunes, if that
Unable to repeat instruction on command in class
which leads up to -
Beginner:
Good amount of technique
Several tunes played up to speed comfortably
Can repeat instruction on command with reasonable ease in class
Which leads up to -
Intermediate:
Knows most essential piping technique
Many tunes played up to speed comfortably
Can repeat instruction on command with ease in class
Beyond Intermediate leading to Advanced -
What I said before about colour, variation and developing a unique style of chanter work
Cheers,
DavidG
From memory, in the introduction to the New Approach, Clarke recommends that beginners start at Lesson 1 of her tutor whereas intermediate and advanced players should fly through the opening lessons and start in earnest with Lesson 12.
I think that once a piper departs from the straight forward (although ornamented) tunes and starts adding real distinguishing features, they’re possibly beyond most “advanced” pipers (on condition that they get away with what they have done).
In my opinion, being advanced means that the piper has mastered a large repertoire of tunes, including some of the traditional test pieces (Buck of Oranmore, Ace & Deuce, etc) both on the chanter and regulators. To be considered advanced, the piper should also have mastered all standard ornamentation.
How large is large? I don’t think one’s ability to play the pipes should be judged on how many tunes they’ve remembered. Nor should it be judged on whether or not part of their repertoir consists of certain ‘test’ pieces. Compare the session-junkies who have learned squillions of tunes but haven’t put the time into making them uniquely ‘theirs’ with the ‘kitchen piper’ so to speak, who has a smaller, or perhaps much smaller, repertoir but has spent the time moulding each tune so that people listening will know that that can be no other than so-and-so playing. Unless of course we’re talking about Ennis and Clancy who I’m guessing didn’t need to spend much time in the end; it all just happened on the fly. But then they were way beyond super-dooper advanced.
Including regulators? Dunno. Until very recently, and even now, I hazard a guess, there are proficient pipers who have no desire to ‘regulate’ their playing. Does that mean they’re less advanced?
Cheers,
DavidG
Number of tunes tends to correlate, though, with ability. Starting from the best pipers on down - the ones at the top know hundreds and hundreds of tunes. Even younger performers of note seem to soak up every tune with ease and have massive repertoires. Tunes played with distinction, though, might be something else.
Correlate, yes. Naturally the longer one has been learning the more tunes they will know - but a natural (or nurtured) ability to soak up tunes is something else from ability to pipe.
Speaking as a GHB piper, where competition plays an important role, it is clear in that ‘world’ what one’s playing level is based on a grade assigned by [semi-]professional judges. Granted, some get too fixated on the whole competition thing at the expense of other aspects of musicianship in the GHB world … give us a break – we only have 9 notes! 
From what I’ve read, though, UP players look at the GHB competitions as a bad idea.
I would guess that the criteria for beginning, intermediate, and advanced is the same for every instrument in all but a few, instrument-specific ways. A professionally-trained music teacher would probably give some guidance here … anyone out there?
Speaking for myself (I opened this thread) I’m on the third video of the NPU series. I can do the stuff in the first two (kind of skipped the first video) well enough that I’m on to the third. I have 10 years of GHB and 5 years of smallpipes to give me a little boost to start.
I wonder if I could perhaps be the weaker student in an intermediate class? I keep thinking must beginner classes would cover a lot of what I can do (bellows technique, basic embellishments, scales in 2 octaves, etc) and, in an intermediate class, an instructor would fill me in on gaps or correct my GHB stylistics. I’m planning to register for the east Coast Tionól in September in East Durham with my wife, who is a fiddler.
Dave Jones
I think you might have misunderstood what I wrote. I wrote “mastered a large repertoire”. I meant to emphasis the word “mastered”. I used the term “large repertoire” as I would not consider someone who has spent years polishing a handful of tunes to perfection to be advanced. Just very, very obsessed!! If what you’re saying is quality before quantity, then I agree 100%.
I’d have to insist on regulators being part of the recipe for an “advanced piper”. One thing I’ve learned since joining this forum is that there is music and then there is piping. Similarly, there are musicians and then there are pipers. Someone who plays the chanter very well but who eschews the drones and/or regulators will have difficulty convincing some of the die-hards that he is a real “piper”.
Edit - removed by me so as to avoid WWIII 
Time to throw my two bob in. In the old days, it was 7 years on the chanter, 7 years on the drones, 7 years on the regulators. Now it’s probably around 7 to 10 years to be an advanced player on average (with say 30 mins practice per day average) rather than 21 years…
If we went by the Heather Clarke booklet, Lesson 23 is where you’ve just in my view finished your ‘beginnership’ - which, in mastering these basics you’re looking at years 1 to 3. After that, you’re looking at up to year 4 to 5 being intermediate and years 5 to 7 starting to be experienced. With year 7 to 10 advanced. I’d then go onto say that years 10 to 20+ is where you’d start to become truly free to experiment completely with the instrument and at 20 years plus experience, you’re effectively a master piper (if you’ve put the 30 mins average practice in each night) but this is what I’ve heard from master pipers who’ve been playing for 20 years…
I’m currently at year 7. I’ve only just decided it’s time to work on drones and regulators as I wanted to master the chanter first. I do a combination of playing in sessions and kitchen piping (though I do mine in the lounge as the kitchen here is too small). I’d self style myself as experienced and only just progressing into the final 7 to 10 year bracket now.
Do you think this is accurate in your own experiences?
Kind regards
Andy
From experience from attending a Tionol. Although I wasn’t considered an advanced player (as devined by PJ). I new at least 15 tunes, with a reasonably complicated ammount of ornamantation. From what I understand Mikie placed me in the advanced group because he thought he could hcallenge me. I also new some of the more complicated ornamantations (such as backstitching) before starting the lesson.
Sometimes your defined at the actuall cause. The teachers have a listen to your piping and work out how much you know. Some tunes that I know (Killfavill Jig for instance) if you put to much ornamantation in it you can loose the tune. Good teachers would judge your knowledge and technique not the tunes.
Cheers L42B 
Again, in my comments, the emphasis was on mastering tunes and quality before quantity.
I’d agree with most of what you said, particularly the bit about practising 30 minutes everyday. When I began, it was marathon sessions of 3 hours once per week. Waste of time. For the past 2 or 3 years, it’s been between 30 minutes and 1 hour every night (well, lets say 5 nights per week). My playing has come along leaps and bounds - or at least I think so 
This is not entirely correct. If you are more directly involved with the Irish community you will probably join up with the Comhaltas organization, and they do have piping competitions and grading. Its just that CCÉ is not as prevalent in some places versus others.
What tends to obscure UP playing is that it is not regimented in any way, like GHBs. There is also the issue of styles, which are many in UPs versus GHBs. One instructor will tell you to play things one way (e.g. timing of rolls) and another teacher will tell you something else. It really gets down to styles and what you, as an individual, prefer. This anarchy seems to upset some people, but I believe it to be the essence of ITM.
djm
There’s also the matter that GHBs are much louder and much more mobile allowing the pipers to march up the street making lots of noise and attracting lots of attention. Certainly in Quebec City, people associate bagpipes (NSP, SSP, UP, etc) with GHB. That tends to obscure UP. There’s about a douzen GHB players in the city, and even a garrison of the 78th Fraser Highlanders. There are 3 uilleann pipers.
Dave Jones[quote]
Speaking for myself (I opened this thread) I’m on the third video of the NPU series. I can do the stuff in the first two (kind of skipped the first video) well enough that I’m on to the third. I have 10 years of GHB and 5 years of smallpipes to give me a little boost to start.
I wonder if I could perhaps be the weaker student in an intermediate class? I keep thinking must beginner classes would cover a lot of what I can do (bellows technique, basic embellishments, scales in 2 octaves, etc) and, in an intermediate class, an instructor would fill me in on gaps or correct my GHB stylistics. I’m planning to register for the east Coast Tionól in September in East Durham with my wife, who is a fiddler.
Dave Jones[/quote]
Sounds like intermediate would be the place to start.
KAD
7 years on the drones? Wasn’t the famous quote “7 yrs listening, 7yrs practicing, 7 ys playing”?
I’ve always considered regulators have always been really an optional extra as have I read some older generation pipers thought too, thus shouldn’t be used to judge a piper, but perhaps things are changing.
It’s hard to guage how long I’ve been playing. If had my pipes since 1991 and played them mad keenly for about 3 years then went into hiatus, only taking them out to do band gigs - no practice in between - only last year I started practicing again. So what’s that…maybe 5-6 years proper piping if averaged out. I can do all the ornaments but reckon I got a loooong way to go before a could call myself advanced. And if I never get regulators then I guess I’ll never be a true piper if they really are an essential.
Cheers,
DavidG
KAD
Maybe things are done differently on pipes where you come from but most newer pipers (and even experienced ones) tend to be trained in either small classes set up by a pipers club OR you apprentice yourself for a few years to an experienced piper. There are summer workshops, etc and it must be these things that you’re talking about?
Generally, if you can do either of the first two things and supplement them with the odd workshop, then you’ll progress a lot quicker. Your tutor will be able to tell you which summer workshop you should perhaps go to as well.
If you can only get to workshops on an ad hoc basis, then you’ll no doubt have to make do as best you can with the ole’ Heather Clarke tutor, etc…
Ausdag,
Regulators, are they necessary? Now there’s a whole post in itself. Maybe we should start one for discussion?
Breaks are a good thing for any learning. Your learning curve actually happens in a stepped manner. For a while you’ll be obsessed, then you’ll reach a point where nothing else fits in your head and you plateau out. Then upwards again. That’s how I find learning in nearly most sphere’s of life including piping.
During the obsessed bits, that 30 mins thing is what I’m talking about. During the breaks I’ve had, I’ll not pick up pipes for nearly a month, then one day, you can’t take them off me!
I’m still learning though! It’s one of these instruments that has countless combinations to understand and master!
The regs in my opinion ARE needed. Precisely because that each key on them is another combination to add to all the other combinations. It adds in even more variables!
Don’t need more variables just yet? Then the regs aren’t needed. Each variation is another tool to master, another possibility. Another hindrance if brought in too early.
In otherwords, it depends on where you’re at I reckon.
What am I saying, I don’t even have regs! But that’s just where I’m at.
Cheers!
Andy