I’ve noticed most of you are North-American. Now, my question is : is it necessairy to mention the value of a whistle when sending it to Europe ?
Here’s why : I bought a whistle from Doc (good service !) and had to pay an extra 18 $ taxes. Bought another whistle from a forum-member and again, 15 $ importtaxes… Now, I’d like to avoid those costs.
The second person I bought a whistle of suggested writing : “whistle returned after repairs” or something to that effect.
I don’t know about Belgium, but here in Norway they calculate the tax from the value of the shipment+postage. So,- if the sender declares the value to be 0 $, the tax becomes as low as possible. Also make the sender declare the shipment as a gift. Contact the customs authorities in your country and ask for what kind of rules they follow, that may help you getting the tax to become a minimum.
If it’s a trader who sends goods the total value can’t be higher than 22 euro. If it is, taxes + vat etc. will be charged.
If it’s a individual (goods without a commercial purpose) e.g. a gift from a familymember, than the value can not be higher than 45 $. If there’s a discussion, I will have to prove that the value is not higher than 45 $ (that would be hard, I reckon, e.g. with a secondhand whistle ).
If I send a whistle for repairs to the US I will have to get a form to avoid being taxed when my own whistle returns.
Solved my own question but it may be interesting to post the different rules in different countries seeing so many whistles get shipped around. And in the case of the secondhand whistle I bought, the whistle was 50 $ + 15 $ shipping. I paid another 13 $ in taxes upon arrival, which could have been avoided (and spend on another whistle )
I’m absolutely not asking anyone to lie for me. I’m just looking at what the rules are…
If I get send a secondhand whistle (from a private person) with a new value of 58 euro, how much is it worth secondhand ? As said, if it’s under 45 euro no taxes need to be paid…
Besides, with the personal income tax in Belgium as high as 65 %, all legal means of avoiding tax are thoroughly explored …
Don’t know about Europe, but in Russia you have to pay taxes only if the declared price of a parcel is more than 5000 roubles (about $200). Still, to ensure that there will be no problems with customs, it’s better when the seller declares the price $0.
Assuming you can get the seller to lie for you. I’m offended just hearing you suggest such a thing.
Here in Russia it’s hard to get the stuff like whistles or whistle tutors - you have to order them abroad, then wait for weeks, and the price is usually doubled with shipping costs - so I defenitely don’t want to pay import taxes also. I don’t think that small lie is a thing to be offended with.
I suggest that parties to private transactions look very carefully at how non-commercial consignments are defined, described and treated. This would apply to second-hand whistles, and arguably to hobbyist manufacturers, though not to those engaging in whistle-making for a living.
The rules should normally be the same for all EU countries and I think also for Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein, though there may be some de minimis flexibility for goods which are of a cultural nature.
Funny how people agonise over lying about a $100-dollar musical instrument which brings joy and peace, whereas lying about getting one’s collective hands on billions of dollars’ worth of crude oil is judged by a different moral standard.
Yeah, there are lurks and perks. At the end of the day - if you “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s” then you, and the vendor, can’t be keel-hauled for fraud at a later date.
I have it quite simple, because I usually insure anything I send (where posssible) - the insurance value must match the goods description. It makes the total price seem quite high, but then, If you use couriers (UPS, Fedex etc), then the cost of transport can easily out-strip the value of the whistle.
There’s another part to this - depending on your locality, and the local tax-rules, it can be cheaper to buy the same product overseas than from your local vendor. This drives many large retailers offshore for their supplies.
All I can suggest is that folks loby their respective political representatives to lift the barriers to imports of unique items enough to leave the humble pennywhistle alone. Ther other alternative is for some kind of internationally agreed level of goods tax that removes the in-ballances - in the mean time, one has to simply cop the cut - it’s usually worth it. The alternative risks customs fraud charges or no insurance protection.
I might add that “insurance” began its existence as a confidence-scam - little has changed - read the policy and don’t spend a cent that you don’t need to. It is often better to open a fund in your own name at bank interest rates and lodge your premiums there. Insure yourself - you certainly can’t trust companies. Now I think about it - I might do just that.
The rules should normally be the same for all EU countries and I think also for Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein, though there may be some de minimis flexibility for goods which are of a cultural nature.
I don’t think this is true since VAT rates also differ throughout the EG. For instance, a meal in a restaurant is taxed at 6% VAT in Holland (about 10 miles from my home in Belgium) whereas here the VAT rate is 21 %. So if you drive 10 miles, you get 15 % more meal for your money, which is why a lot of people organize weddings and meetings across the border.
For companies, if you organise a corparate meeting abroad (e.g. in Holland) it is 100 % tax-deductable. If it is in Belgium, it’s only 50 % deductable. Another reason to go to Holland. That’s what I mean with all means are explored…
Funny how people agonise over lying about a $100-dollar musical instrument which brings joy and peace, whereas lying about getting one’s collective hands on billions of dollars’ worth of crude oil is judged by a different moral standard.
At the end of the day - if you “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s” then you, and the vendor, can’t be keel-hauled for fraud at a later date.
I try to render unto Caesar as little as is legally possible…
It’s worth what you paid for it. Otherwise you wouldn’t have bought it. If that happens to fall in the duty-free price range, then great. You always have the option to not purchase it.
As for gifts, if you pay for it, it is merchandise, and not a gift. Two different things. the 45 euro level does not apply to purchases. Period. No matter who you bought it from(unless there is some weird twist to Belgian import law)The 22 Euro level would apply. In order to make a purchase fall under the gift category, some type of deception would be necessary.
Import duties are totally different from VAT. When importing from the US, each country could have different duties(these are not taxes)to my knowledge. I don’t think the European free trade agreement applies to purchases from the US, but I could be wrong. The European union could all have the same import duties from outside that union, but I doubt it.
breqwas, it is not trying to get out of taxes that offends me. it is the idea of somebody asking the seller to lie about the value of the merchandise. lying, dishonesty, deceit. That sort of thing.
Roger: good point about the oil. But our government is banking on our apathy, not our moral viewpoint. They know that we know that it’s wrong. But we are not motivated enough to do anything about it. And don’t think that the rest of the world is free of guilt either. Last I checked, the rest of the world is allowing the US to do its thing.
@awildman : you are absolutely correct and a moral example to us all (not irony intended). But how’s with exchange of whistles ? BTW, I didn’t ever mention asking anyone to lie (wouldn’t do that).
I know import duties are different from VAT but both of these are charged on imports (in Belgium). Both import duties and VAT differ from European country to country. The US does not fall under the EG’s free trade rules.
Last I checked, the rest of the world is allowing the US to do its thing.
The Untied Nations (headed by France and Belgium) condemned militairy action in Iraq. The UK and US went along on their own. Seems we don’t have a lot of choice… Too bad for al the brave men and women over there…
I work for DHL Express and see things like that all the time. Ominous “repair” parcels with no value declared etc. etc., and the damage that needs repair isn’t even noticeable (yes, we open suspicious parcels and check them, particularly because of air traffic safety). Or sometimes there are goods that are declared as being a “product sample” with a value of “$0” and clearly noticeable signs of usage. Or the usual “birthday present” without any kind of personal letter enclosed, but a value of several hundred dollars. It happens nearly daily that we remove such parcels from the movement and send it back to the consignor since we can’t afford to help anyone with their illegal activities.
To ensure that a parcel reaches it’s consignee as fast and secure as possible, make sure that you provide the following information:
add a so-called “pro forma invoice” with consignor and consignee’s names, telephone numbers, detailed contents of the parcel and lifelike value information.
also write detailed content information and value on the letter of consignment/waybill.
If it’s really a repair/warranty case, feel free to write that. I recently sent a wooden flute footjoint with three keys for a repair to New Zealand. I enclosed a pro forma invoice saying that the parcel contains a “wooden flute footjoint with three keys, needs repair (crack in wood), case of warranty”, estimated the real value at 500 euros and added “no commercial value, for warranty repair only”. The footjoint arrived at the flute make after two weeks and he didn’t have to pay any taxes or duties.
Just keep in mind that those people at the customs aren’t stupid. You surely can get around the taxes with small lies, but it’s not fair as taxes have a reason after all, and it’s not really a problem to distinguish between a real repair and a tax-saving repair, if you know what I mean.
Just keep in mind that those people at the customs aren’t stupid.
Maybe they are not, but these simple tricks helped some of my friends - stuff like bodhran, dancepad, or fencing equipment can’t be bought in Russia, and is expensive enough to encourage you to find some way to avoid a 30% tax.
So - these trick do work, at least with regular mail (not DHL/UPS) and Russian and Ukranian customs.
BTW. The two main reasons of customs taxes to exist are
That government want money (but I also do)
That government want me to buy domestic goods
Alas - I wish I could buy a domestic whistle, but I can’t.
I sometimes buy C melody saxophones fron theUSA and was advised to ask the vendor to mark the package “Commodity code 9706000000 Antique saxophone for repair, value $ actual cost.”
This certainly seems to work and has the advantage of being true in this particular case as I only buy them to repair and refurbish.
Despite our different political systems, Scandinavians and Russians have one thing in common: -We all consider it an art to play tricks on our customs authorities.
We all consider it an art to play tricks on our customs authorities. big grin
Well, reasons are different Russian governments has played too much tricks with us in recent 20 years, so we feel free to do the same. And you in Scandinavia just have too big taxes, AFAICS
Well, reasons are different > > Russian governments has played too much tricks with us in recent 20 years, so we feel free to do the same. And you in Scandinavia just have too big taxes
Being a private person you might get away occasionally with declaring under value if you import goods into the EU/Germany or export out. There is a problem though if it is valuable and the parcel goes missing, you will not get refunded.
Being a maker/vendor declaring tax papers wrongly means fraud and "worst case scenario"certainly in Germany that after an audit you loose the ability to export anywhere which can mean closing down your business if your business relies on exporting.
I tried to return a whistle to Kerry Whistles in April only to have it held in Customs for a month and then refused by Kerry Whistles because customs had added a large fee to it. I still don’t understand why they did this. I had insured it for it’s full cost but it was clearly marked as a return. It has not yet been returned to me and the Post Office says they won’t send the insurance forms untill they do a two month search to find it. A real mess. It never occured to me that customs would attach fees to a return. I won’t be sending anything out of the country again.
The funny thing is that when you order a whistle from Kerry in the US the labeling on the package is always labeled as a repair/return, no commericial value. So I am confused why they found commercial value on a return but not a sell (even though it was mislabled). I am sure British Customs must know that Kerry Whistles mostly sells, not repairs their products.
Well, reasons are different Russian governments has played too much tricks with us in recent 20 years, so we feel free to do the same. And you in Scandinavia just have too big taxes
I’ve travelled to the US a lot and did notice that the role the government plays in everyday life is a lot less than in Belgium (both with taxes and other laws). They would never take the amount of laws laid upon us. As said, Belgium has the highest income tax (year 2005) in the world…
for that reason, Belgian’s (and apparently Russians and Scandinavians too) are a lot looser about flirting with infringing those laws. But then the chances of getting caught and the fines for getting caught with “fraud” (golly, that’s a big word, I’d rather call it something like creative accounting ) are a lot less than in the US…
This is not to say I aprove of lieing, deceipt, etc…
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