Scots-Irish music

YES Brass Blower. Lets not forget the OTHER “mountain” people. Folks from the Ozarks. There is a long standing history there too!

BTW…here we are SO messed up it isnt even referred to as SCOTS-IRISH its…SCOTCH IRISH (guess from the drink maybe lol)

There are still songs to catch in the Ozarks and some wonderful work going on there too. University of Missouri in Cape G is doing a wonderful project and they have a great website with recordings and sheet music. Of course…I would rather just go play with them and learn the songs FIRST hand!!

Could someone please explain to me, the American obsession with discovering your roots.
Maybe I’m just a little naive, or maybe your lack of history/heritage… (better not go along that line :stuck_out_tongue: )

On 2002-05-29 11:09, gordontait wrote:
Could someone please explain to me, the American obsession with discovering your roots.
Maybe I’m just a little naive, or maybe your lack of history/heritage… (better not go along that line > :stuck_out_tongue: > )

I’ll give it a try (Have a go at it). Where I live on the south shore of Lake Erie nearly everybody in my generation (I’m 50) has parents or grandparents who emigrated here. In contrast, the family of my wife, who is from Italy/Switzerland, is easily traced back to the early 17th century within a few miles from where she grew up.

There is a feeling of rootlessness that some people feel especially when their parents speak to each other in Serbo-Croatian, or Yiddish or Ukranian. Another big impetus for geneology is due to the influence of the Mormon church. They do geneologies so they can retroactively baptize all their ancestors as Mormons. Their geneology databases are incredibly huge and facilitate geneological research for non-Mormons as well.

Maybe others can give their perspective on this.

Mike

gordontait, I can’t speak for Americans but I know a lot of Canadians that are obsessed with discovering their roots. IMO you are at least partially correct. Compared to many other countries Canada in its present form is relatively young. Consequently, most parts of Canada, especially the West, don’t have a history or culture that most people can relate to. For example, here in Saskatchewan my brother owns a house which was built in 1918 - by Saskatchewan standards it is considered to be very old. Of course, Eastern Canada (i.e., Ontario, Quebec, and the maritime provinces)has a longer history than western Canada - subsequently Quebec and the maritime provinces tend to have more distinctive local cultures. Additionally, for several decades the Canadian Federal government has spent an obscene amount of the taxpayers money promoting so-called “multiculturalism”. IMO it has been a failed experiment that has done nothing but reduce the strength of Canadian culture which was already weak. Anyway, I think that without a history that they can relate to some people go looking for one - hence the need to find ones “roots”.

On 2002-05-29 11:09, gordontait wrote:
Could someone please explain to me, the American obsession with discovering your roots.
Maybe I’m just a little naive, or maybe your lack of history/heritage… (better not go along that line > :stuck_out_tongue: > )

Gordon, that’s potentially an inflammatory and hurtful statement, though I am responding in good humour. Please read in a spirit of understanding my comments.

In the US case, I believe that having a constitutional culture based on our liberties and rights rather than a specific ethnic identity leads to periodic bursts of either religious or genealogical identification and activity in our history.

Interestingly, the Mormon church, which was mentioned above, represents both. Mormons, or Latter-Day Saints, came together in the mid 19th century and sort of reunited various types of most North Europeans or Brit heritage types into a unified group of people pursuing a utopian covenanted community. That same group, which grew and grew, then embarked on this massive genealogy project that has given us so much information. Its intent, to baptize dead ancestors, may have its detractors but the benefits have been enormous. They share their info freely (I am not a Mormon but have used their database a lot) as well.

We have had other periodic religious movements that also unified people of differing backgrounds.

I believe that the true American cultural existence is pretty stark: each of us and our Constitution. When you realize that most of us in a given community don’t go to a single type of church, eat the same foods, dress the same ways etc. people miss out on some familiar touchpoints.

I think its “easier” to find some pre-determined path of behavior and characteristics to identify with rather than make your own way, which is lonely and requires maturity, independence and a definite rejection of patriarchy. We bend to no Pope, dictator (for the most part) or monarch. At our best, we are grown-up men and women who study our laws and know that we are part of the decision-making that shapes our country, rather than metaphoric children, who some religious figure, socialist bureaucrat or dictator tells how to live (I know, I know, corporate socialism pretty much sets the gas prices and so forth but the illusion is somewhat livable).

And by the way, Gordon, a good part of the anarchic independence in our historical culture came from the Ulster Scots, who were pretty much cut free of old ties of clan and monarch when they came here. High minded Viriginians and proprietary New Englanders might have proposed the laws, but Ulster Scots were the shock troops who made it happen.

I have very mixed feelings when Americans get all worked up and try and identify with some historical culture because they often bring the bad with the good. As soon as some jackhole discovers he’s Scottish, he can likely decide he hates Irishmen because he is supposed to. And vice versa. This goes on and on and is not confined to Europeans by any means. It is times like those that I especially appreciate our Constitutional culture. People may practice cultural animosities but its not hard-wired into our identity via a single church or monarch. And for those who would point to our oppression of Indians, I would say that we have tried (and mostly failed) to repent and amend our excesses and still practice legalized guilt about it in the form of special treatments and citizen status for Native Americans.

When I look at situations like the Northern Irish Troubles, the Balkans, the Poles-Germans and on and on, I am especially grateful to be a New World resident, not an old, notwithstanding our own problems.

Try and appreciate our position and realize that a great deal of research about Scotland, an influx of money-bearing well-meaning tourists is not a bad thing, nor something to be ridiculed. And as far as history, we are the oldest living constitutional republic, a history that I am quite proud to be part of. No better than anybody else in an absolute sense, but we do have a history. It’s just tougher to identify with and leads to the interests you asked about.

Well, Gordon, think of it as a mixing pot phenomena. If you eat a single food item and like it you would say…that _____ is good. If, however its a MIXTURE of a bunch of stuff you would say…hey that was good what is IN it.

I have contemplated this matter too (why Americans are so interested in genealogy). Some valid points have already been mentioned:
(1) Lack of a unified heritage.
(2) Abundance of material researched by Mormons.
(3) A need to connect to an Ethnic group.

There was a real spark of interest ignited when Alex Haley published the book “Roots” and then its television miniseries.

I used to notice how much people liked to play at being Italian or Scandinavian, or whatever nationality they believe their heritage to be. If anything, this was a bit annoying.

I am a card-carrying member of the Cherokee Nation. But like most Americans, am of mixed ancestry: Scottish, Irish, English, Cherokee.

The high school, where I attended, took all of us who were of Native American descent to the genealogical library on a field trip. I didn’t find any information I didn’t already know.

My interest, rather than compiling a genealogy, was to acquire photographs of as many ancestors as I could. I am fortunate enough to have several grandparents still living. I simply borrowed their photographs and made copies. I framed them and put them up in my house, which my Dad called a museum. When my kin saw the photos they wanted copies too. We get our interest, sometimes, by seeing what our family have dug up!

I first heard about my genealogical heritage from a great-uncle who had researched it out. This sparked my interest, and I went to the library and researched it further.

On the other side of the family, a Mormon relative searched it all out, and sent out copies of all her research and documents.

P.S. I do not believe such a thing as a pure race exists. As much as people want to be pure this or pure that, various tribes have intermingled through history. We are all ultimately descended from Noah. And it is time to end the racial warfare.


Walden


And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? --1Cor.14:7

[ This Message was edited by: Walden on 2002-05-30 04:53 ]

Well thanks for all your opinions.
It was meant in good humour, and I’m glad none of you have got too worked up about it!
I see this from the opposite perspective - no-one over here really cares that much about which “clan” they belong to, etc. (most of that stuff was invented by the victorians to cash in on the fashionability of Scotland at the time).
It’s just weird sometimes when some American comes over on holiday claiming to be a “gen-oo-ine Ur-qu-hart” or something and he’s blatantly as American as Apple Pie.
It is good for our economy though :wink:

On 2002-05-30 08:43, gordontait wrote:
Well thanks for all your opinions.

It’s just weird sometimes when some American comes over on holiday claiming to be a “gen-oo-ine Ur-qu-hart” or something and he’s blatantly as American as Apple Pie.
It is good for our economy though > :wink:

It often takes a trip to Scotland, Poland or wherever for many North Americans to realize that they are Americans/Canadians and not whatever ethnic group they identify with. This realization can be discomfiting because it brings home the fact that they really have more in common with the black/hispanic/whatever Americans who grew up in their town than they do with some mythic ideal of their ethnic group. I have no problem with people discovering that their great grandparents came from a small town in the Abruzzi region of Italy as long as it doesn’t become an excuse for bigotry.
Mike

On 2002-05-30 09:03, burnsbyrne wrote:


It often takes a trip to Scotland, Poland or wherever for many North Americans to realize that they are Americans/Canadians and not whatever ethnic group they identify with. This realization can be discomfiting because it brings home the fact that they really have more in common with the black/hispanic/whatever Americans who grew up in their town than they do with some mythic ideal of their ethnic group.

I think that’s exceptionally true.
Thanks for that bit of input!

Here is the breakdown of my children -

1/4 Thai
1/4 Vietnamese
1/8 Scottish
1/8 Irish
3/16 English
1/16 Norweigian
100% American

Not too shabby huh?

By the way, I especially enjoyed your posts “The Weekenders” and burnsbyrne!

-Craig

Craig,
We have a little flag stand on our piano which contains the following miniature flags:

USA
Canada
Ireland
Great Britain
Switzerland
Italy

It’s a great conversation starter
I bought the flags at flagline.com

Mike

I’ve been following the evolution of this thread with great interest–thanks to all for sharing points of view and family roots. In that spirit, just thought I’d add the rest of my own heritage:

1/4 Scots-Irish
1/4 German
1/2 Russian/Polish Jew

My father’s uncle was the first to leave the shtetl and emigrate to America. Six months later his brother, my grandfather, arrived. The by-now-so-experienced uncle told my grandfather: “If we really want to be Americans we have to change our names. Sitkowski is just too Old World.” My grandfather said, “OK–you’ve been here a while. What name shall we take?” My uncle said, “We want a typical American name: Rosenberg.” I kid you not. :slight_smile: So my father was born some years later with the very American name Myron Rosenberg. :slight_smile:

That flag Idea is a great on Mike!

This is a bit OT - But although I think knowing your ancestry/background is important for individuals, I think America is way too focused on race. I read an article recently about Tiger Woods and all these race based groups trying to claim him whether they are Black or Asian and he has done a masterful job at staying out of that junk.

I am also curious about something.

Watching the Miss Universe contest I noticed that Miss Sweden was clearly not of Swedish decent. If someone is born in Ireland and happens to be of African decent do people in Ireland say he is Irish or do they say some hyphenated term?

I think people are used to seeing the mutliple cultures that represent America but clearly the faces of Europe have been changing as well.

What an interesting thread. I don’t think there is anything wrong with finding your roots per se. In fact, its quite interesting, some of my genealogy is done back to the 16th century and its neat to see how our family name has changed over time, and how the family moved and so forth - we even uncovered a couple of really cool stories. However, I think a person who does so needs to be a bit careful that it does negatively influence who they are. Sometimes people have these odd impressions about what makes a Scot, or a German, or whatever - more often than not these impressions are based on false stereotypes. Sometimes when people do their genealogy they “discover” they are Scottish, or Irish, or whatever and began to change their personalities to match a false stereotype. Its kinda weird. I once worked with a guy whose family had been in Saskatchewan (a Canadian prairie province) since the turn of the century. His great grandparents had emigrated here from Ireland in like 1904 or something like that. Anyway, this dude was into genealogy (but had never been to Ireland) and sort of lived as this kind of false stereotypical Irishman. He was a good worker but as a person he was difficult to get along with. For example, I once descretely mentioned to him at work that I thought he was being rather short tempered and rude with people. He replied with something like, “Well, thats okay because I’m a red-haired Irishman and everybody knows that we have a short fuse.” At first I thought he was kidding but over time I realized that he was quite serious. Somehow he had bought into a weird stereotype of a “red-haired Irishman” - of course it was nonsense (IMO) but in his mind his heritage determined what kind of person he was. IMO this sort of “ethnic determinism” is not only false but inevitable leads to bigotry.

[ This Message was edited by: garycrosby on 2002-05-30 11:50 ]

Just to get back to the original thread…
The banjo is a good example of blurring of culture lines. Most people know that the banjo was brought to America by African slaves. It was later adopted by Scots-Irish musicians and is the defining element of Bluegrass music which is exclusively played by white musicians. Ironically, very few African Americans play banjo anymore because of its association with the subjugation of slavery. Even more curious is that the banjo has become a typical instrument in Irish traditional music along with the bouzouki, another traditional Celtic instrument. :slight_smile:
Mike

[ This Message was edited by: burnsbyrne on 2002-05-30 12:10 ]

On 2002-05-30 12:09, burnsbyrne wrote:
Just to get back to the original thread…
The banjo is a good example of blurring of culture lines. Most people know that the banjo was brought to America by African slaves. It was later adopted by Scots-Irish musicians

Mike,
Thanks for that kinda full-circle insight. Where’d you learn about the banjo being picked up by the Scots-Irish? Maybe I should look into some banjo history…BTW, I play in a quasi-bluegrass band myself.

Interesting remarks, all. For those who don’t already know, check out DrHorsehair.com to understand the development and adoption of the banjo, whose appearance was nearly simultaneous with manufactured reed instruments, another biggie for folk adoption.

I think the Irish adopted the banjo by serendipity and it worked. Probably just a few people simultaneously added it in (my Vallely is at home).You could get hi-falutin and point out that there has been something like a banjo for eons in many musical cultures and people just gravitate back toward instrument “delivery system” types. This is most definitely the case for violin whose modern Italian shape is a classical and folk instrument in so many cultures. Some things fit so well they become assumed natives. DADGAD guitar and bouzoukis are great other examples.

As for blacks playing banjo, I think that to reduce it to associations with slavery isn’t nearly the whole answer, though important. The strange aspect of American country music and its paradoxical relationship with blacks is a really big OT discussion and I leave it a that because I am “working.”

One other OT thing that bears mentioning: the pursuit of genealogy has been completely changed by Internet technology, photo and document scanning, printing etc. What was a tiresome and sometimes expensive hobby has become a fairly cheap and quickly satisfying one. As a result it is a huge hobby now. The Biblical endtimes “explosion of information” come to mind because people know more about where they came from than ever before.
I have amassed so much geno info that I need a library to house it and I do ask myself why sometimes. It was and remains interesting to me but it is quite easy to go off the deep end and live there, not unlike some sufferers of a known disorder I heard about somewhere…
: )

[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-05-30 13:47 ]

The history you refer to for the banjo referrs only to the 5 string banjo. All banjos are descendent from the orginal string/goard instruments. 5 string was actually the smaller portion until the rise of bluegrass and old timey music.

TENORS/Plectrums/Banjolins etc all have rather interesting and diverse historys. There are quite a number of very good DixieLand Jazz musicians who aint exactly lily white.

Even the 5 string was played in blues, and still is represented with traditional blues players.

I wonder if it would be much better for people to look FORWARD rather than BACK.

Otherwise we’ll be stuck with descendants from the Irish potato famine,or from the Scottish land clearances, or British convicts in Australia or former slaves in the States…
Just because my forefathers were bloodthirsty axe murderers [for example !] doesn’t mean that I am in any way like them.

Look to the Future…I think that is where we are all truly defined.

Boyd.

[ This Message was edited by: boyd on 2002-05-31 05:15 ]