Well, #3331 got £205. Am I allowed to be smug? 
This one looks kinda familiar! Not a scam (technically), just one of our known dealers aiming at a nearly 500% mark up! That’s both totally unrealistic (as in, see the sales record this thread now constitutes) and down-right greedy. 
It’s #2699 back, just over a month after being sold on eBay for £127 - which was maybe a trifle cheap for what it is, but it does need a barrel crack repaired and a full clean and overhaul… It isn’t in anything like as nice a condition as #3331, though should match it once restored.
EDIT - the eBay vendor has dropped his Buy It Now to £450 (!!!) after I pointed him at this thread. That’s still a c250% mark-up. Still way OTT even for a restored or pristine example.
OK, Time to defend myself from all you critics out there…Jem I’m Phil from Phils-Historic-Instruments on Ebay. I sell and have sold a lot of old and interesting instruments including flutes for over 10 years. If you care to doubt my sincerity & honesty, please check out my feedback. Many of you may have purchased instruments from me. I hold my hands up to the error in the pricing of this RC piccolo. But lets take a moment and if one looks at the marketplace in general, there are plenty of RC flutes going for mega bucks, a few thousand for example…As for making a good profit…its no good working for Nowt. Back to the picc. Have now reduced it to £300.
PS. I have a few nice flutes to bring to the market soon. RC’s, Fentum, Goulding etc so keep watching
Hear hear
Phil, welcome to C&F, first and foremost. I’m sure you’ll find participation here useful and rewarding.
Speaking for myself, as a past customer of yours on at least one occasion, I don’t doubt your eBay bona fides. However, restricting ourselves to the specific case in hand, I think this is simply a misjudgment on your part.
I know I have myself bought things which, on receipt, turned out not to be what I thought they were (maybe LP or HP when I hoped they were 440 etc.), or in worse condition (beyond worthwhile repair) than anticipated, or with incurably duff intonation… One has to take such things on the chin, and they are usually, over time, balanced by the occasional jackpot, where one buys a genuine sleeper. That happened for me with the piccolo I mentioned above, #1783, which I bought on eBay for c £20 not knowing myself specifically what it was as the vendor didn’t list it well - lovely surprise when it turned up and I read the stamp! Of course, it needs a lot of restoration work - more than Phil’s #2699. Even though it has block rather than pillar mounts and is known to be by Wylde, I doubt if, once restored, it would (on a very good day) command more than £300-350 tops, maybe less, supposing I wanted to sell it (I don’t).
Yes, Rudall & Rose simple system concert flutes go in the £2k-4k range, depending on exactly what they are and their condition. They are still highly rated and sought after in the Irish trad world, though less so than of yore due to the plethora of good modern makers whose fully keyed flutes sell in the £1800-3k range (with waits). Rudall Carte Bohm closed G# system flutes which are built for A=440 (most are HP and worth far less) and are in fully overhauled playing condition can go in the £1k-2k range - mostly they are not in high demand among modern professional Bohm flute players. Other systems are generally worth less, though may have some collectability value. But piccolos, of any system and pitch standard, simply are not in great demand. There are plenty of lesser brand and un-branded antique piccolos out there (as, in your field, you must be aware), just as there are Bb band flutes. If one wants one, they are readily available (OK, you have to hunt a bit to find one definitely playable at 440) and cheaply so because there’s no real demand. The occasional special one may be more valuable/collectable (such as the silver-keyed early RRC one up-thread). That is, perhaps what we see here, that even with the Rudall brand cachet, they simply don’t get prices above what we’ve seen in this thread - these are the premium examples!
Here’s part of one message I sent Phil via eBay (where in another I drew his attention to this thread - hence his arrival.)
I stand by that. Phil paid £127 for it, thinking he was on a banker, when in fact he’d paid about the right premium-marque price for it given the work needed to make it playable. That’s why I and others didn’t outbid him. He didn’t “get lucky” on that particular purchase. Yes, traders need to make a return on their investment… but if they’ve misjudged their purchase, they have to accept a lesser profit margin than they usually target, or sometimes even stand a loss. I don’t think the latter pertains here, but Phil, I challenge you to get a (another) quote for restoration to full playing condition for #2699 and to vector that into your reckonings. I also think that save in the kind of “sleeper” bingo!-moment circumstances, making a return of between +50-150% on outlay is pretty acceptable in commercial terms. It is no good saying “I can’t work for nothing” and sticking with an excessive pricing policy - you simply won’t make a sale or recoup anything by being unrealistic.
Phil, quite a few of us watch e.g. the Gardiner-Houlgate auctions and see what things sell for there, then see you and maggini-supplies putting them out on eBay for excessive mark-ups - and usually gradually having to drop back from the first prices you think of - We understand. Most of your purchasers are probably relatively inexperienced and end up buying things that aren’t quite what they want/thought (eBay feedback notwithstanding), for more than they’re really worth and having to spend a lot more on getting them restored. OK, that’s a learning curve folk have to go through (I know I have!) and if you can profit from that, it isn’t IMO entirely “unfair”, but one of the things we’re about here is helping such folk as find us to understand. The old phrase “what the market will bear” is apt - and of course works in both directions.
It isn’t my intention nor in my interest to (try to) drive prices unreasonably low or below “proper market value” (whatever that is) or to “spoil” anyone’s sale. But I also object to and have a track record of intervening in instances where genuine but inexpert vendors are about to be exploited by unscrupulous buyers and I feel similarly about severe over-pricing which may take an innocent purchaser for a ride. Of course, market forces are more likely to correct the latter, but even so, I sincerely believe that such things are ultimately not in the best interest of any of us in this field. Bottom line is that, fully restored, this piccolo is maybe (with luck - we haven’t seen one actually get it!) worth £300-350. Remember, the pristine, undamaged and ready to play without restoration #3331 just sold for £205 - good value for the new owner, yes, but silly cheap? I think not.
I take everything that you are saying on board and I must bow to your woodwind expertise, but I ain;t selling books…?
No, though I think we’ve moved beyond that point. Still, if we extend the comparison a bit FWIW, in the book trade (in my day, at any rate) the 50% mark up was pretty much fixed - there wasn’t a lot of variation, yet the business worked… Of course, the comparison won’t hold water very far -that is a volume, new, non-unique item business working in a well defined supply chain. I still think you’ll find most retail businesses don’t routinely make mark-ups in multiples of hundreds % - nor need to to make viable margins.
But, as I’ve already pointed out, whilst if you had bought this picc for £30 and tried to sell it for £150 (i.e. a 400% mark-up) no-one would be criticising and, if they noticed, would likely congratulate you on good luck and judgement when you sold, that kind of proportion of margin won’t work in this instance because the top realisable value for the specific item won’t support it from the price you paid. Yes, of course you are entitled to try to sell your purchases for whatever you can get for them, and good luck to you in (making a realistic living) doing so. You can doubtless make a profit on this one, just not at that kind of level. And buying on eBay and then recycling the goods untouched is hardly especially hard work/a huge investment of effort (compared to “value-added” resale - fixing them up and making sure you really know what you’re selling and that your prospective purchasers do too). Simply saying something like “I can’t accept less than a 200% profit margin (purchase price x3)” when the resulting price is way above what the market will bear … just won’t get you a sale.
Making the effort to go the live auctions, boot sales, house clearances, whatever, and taking risks on those purchases and then making them more widely available online to folk who can’t go along themselves is a perfectly valid and valuable line of work and doubtless often offers far larger margins because you start from prices lower in relation to potential sale values when offered to a wider public - kinda like a wholesale/retail relationship in some respects. This example doesn’t fit that model. Even if you’d sat on it for a year and I/we hadn’t recognised and commented on it, you still wouldn’t have had the proverbial snowball’s chance of getting £750 or £450 for it.
Jem, you’ve certainly gone a long way towards educating all of us, including Phil. I only wish that I could profit such when I decide to let a flute go, although I have this stubborn tendency to want to get them fixed up better first, even if already playable. And then a stubborn tendency not to sell them at all.
In any case, I think it’s time to let this one go. Any eBay seller will determine, even if through trial & error, what does or does not work for them, in terms of asking prices, fees, risk of loss, etc., and will adjust accordingly, eventually. If he wants to dump his inventory, I don’t think it will be a problem for the market to decide what will or won’t sell. If it was listed in the Exchange here at C&F, you wouldn’t even be able to comment. Let the poor guy run his business/hobby.
Fair comment, Kevin. And I surely recognise those stubborn tendencies!
Anyway, even I get tired of repeating myself eventually… 
I hope the picc sells to someone who will get it fixed up and play it, and that Phil will make a reasonable profit in the process.
dang Jem, this is beyond fraught…
almost borderin’ on heinous, innit!
And the next one… a very late one, by the serial number (#8068). I’ve asked for dimensions to check the pitch.
If only he would allow shipping across the pond!..
May I ask what one does with these instruments, once one has a working one of them?
I have a sweetheart pic and it’s nice but too loud. Why would I want all those keys?
Explanation requested, si vous plait.
Well, we play them of course!
If you think simple system Piccs are loud you should hear a Böhm picc played forte. Seriously it feels like a drill bit going into your eyes from the inside of your head drilling outwards.
In all seriousness, they’re great for playing outdoors with earplugs in (or at least in the right ear). The main way I have seen these old piccs played sucessfully indoors is to play them in a decidedly non-ITM manner, and by that I don’t mean repertoire or musical style, but rather - not overdriven - not pushing it as hard as it will go to get that vibrant reedy tone because you’ll likely bust an ear drum trying to do so. Indeed, played mezzo-piano at loudest, and most often pianissimo, is the way to go. They’re great when playing with other loud instruments as well, but one must exercise care to avoid starting an amplitude war.
About all those keys, simple system flutes and piccolos started life playing classical music, not folk stuff, so they were an indispensable aspect of the flute. Personally I find a not-fully-chromatic flute to be very restricting and at times useless.
Oh and about loud high pitched instruments - look into the modern ocarina world. The forte triple alto C’s and quad alto C’s have a 2 1/2 to 3 octave range starting in the same octave as a piccolo. The difference is they cannot play other dynamics than Mezzo-Forte, Forte, and Fortissimo as they progress up their range. These ocarinas have upper tessituras that are ALWAYS Forte or higher. And unlike in the flute world, they generally play songs in as high of octave as they can due to muddy tone and intonation inconsistencies in the lower tessitura.
Jim, if your only picc experience is of a Sweetheart, it is pretty much meaningless. IMO those things are firewood. For starters these proper ones are not relatively louder than the equivalent flutes - just higher pitched so more piercing, though of course one has embouchure and breath control to manipulate how they sound - and they can be very sweet in their lower range. Of course, if you play forte in the 3rd 8ve it can be painful. Why keys? Same reasons as on any flute. I mostly use mine in Y Glerorfa, a context of 30-50 musicians, and when playing for dancing - both situations where the penetration it offers is useful. I do occasionally use it in sessions, usually for particular tunes (often polkas).
Further to the above, if really interested you can hear me playing my 1922 Ebonite RC&Co piccolo in the following tracks from the Clerorfa’s 2009 CD:
Track 3 (Swayne whistle in the air, piccolo in the ensuing jigs)
Track 7
Track 11
Track 12
They’re available to (purchase) download here and on itunes, as is the entire CD. (This isn’t a CP - I don’t get anything, not even fractional royalties from this!) There are short, free to listen clips from them on that link, but you won’t really get the picc much from those.
Vendor of #8068 says:
It’s 36cm length, plays in concert (A440) pitch. 6 holes covered plays ‘D’. Needs repadded.
but “36cm” doesn’t make sense - too long by far for a D piccolo and too short for even a HP Bb band flute - which it clearly isn’t anyway. I wonder if he meant 306mm? He couldn’t be bothered to give the sounding length as requested.
With a couple of hours left, #8068 is up to £102 - and the current high bidder is Phil('s Historical Instruments)!!! 
Perhaps he’s trying to corner the market to drive up the prices? Or at least to stop his targetted sale-price on his previous purchase being (again) significantly undercut?
I didn’t get it Jem ..did you..?..
Yes. Just within my bid limit! If the underbidder (not Phil) had had one more… Probably to keep once I’ve overhauled it - wanted a wood one as my Ebonite one, though very nice, is rather condensation prone, and the older wood one I have needs rather more major restoration, including replacement of a missing key - not happening in the foreseeable…
I might also now 'fess up to having won the perfect one at £205 (#3331) recently, though in that case it wasn’t for me, wasn’t my money, and I haven’t even laid eyes on it, let alone hands/lips, as it went straight to my principal - who is very happy with it! (I didn’t make a penny out of that.) One reason why I started hankering for another!