I talked with Bryan Byrne a couple of days ago.
He is enthusiastic about a small holed Rudall he is making.
I have one of his larger holed Rudalls. Brad H has one too,
except Brad’s has keys.
It’s been said that Bryan’s Rudalls are most faithful to the
sound of the old 19th century Rudalls and I do think his
flute has the acoustic features that I identify with them
(but without tuning anomalies, etc). But I don’t know it
because I’ve never played an old Rudall, at least not
one that I was sure really was one.
So I wonder if anyone has been able to compare contemporary copies
of the old flutes with the old flutes themselves? Of course I appreciate
maybe few of us have, but i thought I’d ask.
Chris Norman has a Rod Cameron copy of an old Rudall, and I suppose
that is acoustically faithful if any copy is. What other contemporary rudall-style
flutes are likely to be faithful?
The fact is that given the price of good antique flutes a contemporary
flute that sounded pretty much the same might well be cheaper
and perhaps spare the player the efforts to play the flute
in tune.
FWIW, recently high end antiques in good playing condition have been selling at parallel or lower prices than the list prices of the top makers of modern copies and “afters”. For a fully keyed flute from either source you are looking (with exceptions for the exceptional) at in the region of £2-3k.
My impression, thought it is little more than that, is that good antique rudalls are
going on e bay and here for about 5000 dollars. I did think that the copies
are less, but I can’t now run that down. Bryan Byrne mentioned 3800 as a rough
estimate of his keyed flute–but I’m not sure that it has 8 keys. (Of course if
you don’t want 8 keys there you go; an option you cannot avoid and must
pay for on an antique.)
I wonder how much the Cameron flute costs? I knew that once
but I’m afraid I’ve forgotten.
Anyhow this still leaves reasons to consider a contemporary copy, e.g. avialiability,
better tuning, the absence of anomalies that flow from great age and use in
another musical era, no cracks, a warm and interested maker if you need adjustments.
IF the new flutes sound as good acoustically as the old,
so I wondered if anybody has played both. I haven’t.
Replying to the point of the original post, “…reasons to consider a contemporary copy…”, not all Rudalls are created equally.
There are small, medium, and large holed Rudalls. And there are Rudalls from different periods.
What do you mean by antique Rudall? If you’ve never seen one, how can you mean anything at all?
And if a person has never played an antique Rudall (as distinct from a modern Rudall?) -
how can one speak of tuning anomalies?
R&R originals are quite well documented, both the relative hole sizes and the different tuning anomalities or lack thereof for the different individual models are pretty well known.
The Cameron flute that Chris Norman plays was made as a direct copy of his old boxwood R&R wasn’t it? I’m not sure that Rod offers that model in his normal cataloge.
Maybe if you bribe him with a nice bottle of
whisky
Current list prices from a quick survey of active makers with pricing info published on their websites for standard 8-key flutes where available (“style” and waiting time issues ignored):
Grinter: €3200 (cU$ 4100 at today’s exchange rate)
McGee: $4,935
Ormiston: £2435 (cU$ 3300 at today’s exchange rate)
Hamilton: €2875 (6-key price - no 8-key on website) (cU$ 3680 at today’s exchange rate)
Windward: $4335 Canadian $ (cU$ 3435 at today’s exchange rate)
Noy: $5,550
Gallagher: $4500
I had the info on Rod Cameron flutes but it’s been awhile. I do think he makes copies
of Chris N’s flute.
The question remains: how do the copies compare with the (various) originals tone-wise? Do they sound
as good? I’ve played some of the copies, Grinters, Byrnes… but all I have of an original
is my ersatz cocus 1840 small-holed rudall that (several rudall experts say) was probably made
in the rudall factory and shipped to the USA to be sold. But I’m far from sure it
sounds as good as the real thing.
I suppose most of us are no better positioned to do the comparison than
I am. Maybe one day I’ll have a chance to ask Chris Norman. All the best
Jim, I think you answered at least part of your question. Chris Norman wouldn’t play the Cameron flute if it wasn’t as good as his original Rudall. I’m sure he worked extensively with Mr. Cameron to make sure there was as little difference as possible between the two.
The small-holed Olwell is based on Chris’s flute. I’ve played a virtually exact copy of that flute at the Olwell shop. I actually asked Patrick to make me the exact copy, but he said his small-holed flute simply has some of the tone holes moved to bring it into tune at modern pitch. I’ve played the exact copy and my own Olwell side-by-side and they sound pretty much the same other than needing to lip a couple of notes into tune on the original.
Chris sounds pretty much the same to me on my Olwell, his Cameron, his Rudall, and even my medium-holed all-rosewood Olwell, which I just about had to pry out of his hands. I haven’t tried his flutes, so can’t say how someone without Chris’s spectacular tone sounds on his flutes relative to modern versions.
what you’re talking about are replicas of the originals.
otherwise they are not copies but newly-designed flutes based on the old ones (such as tone hole location, length of bore, etc).
As far as replicas are concerned:
Grinter makes the most faithful copy to the larger-holed Rudalls
Wilkes makes the most faithful copy to the medium-holed Rudalls (including the chimney of the embouchure)
Gallagher makes the most faithful copy to the small-holed Rudalls.
That’s my opinion. That’s not to say other makers don’t, but again, these are replicas, not “tweeked” designs that I’m talking about.
Have you played the Byrne, and, if so, where does it fit in?
Also how does the sound of these flutes compare with the originals?
Is it as good? I know this is all subjective, but I’m glad
to hear educated opinions. Thanks again
Jim, Bryan makes a good flute.
I had one of his awhile back and liked it.
How one flutes sounds compared to the old ones is probably lost to the regular ear.
The striking thing about the original RR flutes is their capacity to play crystal clear in the upper register. We don’t dwell there a lot in trad music, but at the time time of their manufacture they did.
All things equal, I’d say Bryan’s flutes (of before…haven’t tried his new one) are very good.
I remember them being good to the originals in sound, but a shitty lip won’t help that any, so take it for what that’s worth.
Great players can make a thimble sound like a Rudall.
I don’t mean the second scale, but the third…
I typically practice one of my RR up to the third G and sometimes up to B if the mood strikes.
Keeps the lip in shape.
I know what you mean Speaking as a Boehm player, I’ve found that doing halfstep exercises and scales up to the top C makes my lower octave much stronger, particularly the low D.
well, it should certainly give you the flexibility on the fly to adjust as needed.
Sometimes I pinch so tightly that I loose that buzz on the D, and have to adjust mid-tune to get there again.
But a focused embouchure, one under control, is very important.
that’s why some embouchures don’t do so well with some players, and they’ll unfortunately blame the flute design instead of the embouchure itself…either the maker’s or their own.
I’m currently at Boxwood NZ with Chris Norman’s Cameron flute in my hands. The main change that was made from the original is to the chimney height and it being blackwood not boxwood. This was done to get a bit more volume/projection/power for concert perfomances. There are also a couple of very minor tuning adjustments which Rod has told me about but which Chris didn’t know about.
It’s very nice, and very similar to my own 1832 Hill/Monzani.
