Rolls on Cnat

Irish Flute
1

Hiya,

great idea! I’d be interested in how you all play rolls on C if they approach. One tune that comes to my mind is the one we know as “Nollaig Casey’s” here in Germany:

X: 1
T: Nollaig Casey's
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
R: reel
K: Gmaj
G3B dB ~B2 | dege dBGB | cBAG FD ~D2 | FEFG AGFE |
EDEF EC ~C2 | EFGF EC ~C2 | B,EEB, EFGA |1 B2 AB GFED :|2 B2 AB GABd ||
|: g3a bg ~g2 | dg ~g2 bgag | fdAG FD ~D2 | FEFG ABcd |
edef ec ~c2 | efgf ec ~c2 | B2 AF GABc |1 d2 d^c defd :|2 d2 ge dBAB ||

I transpose the C in the first part to a middle c and “roll” it with:

OXX|XOX
OOO|XOX
OXX|XOX
OXX|XXX
OXX|XOX

Sounds like a roll, but like a weak one. How do you do it? Or how do you avoid it? :smiley:

Best,
Gabriel

2

I don’t think I know that tune - and I can’t really sight read ABC and am too lazy to convert it right now. Being a fully keyed fluter, I’d probably play the low C and cran it, but I do do middle C rolls in other contexts, both sharp and natural ones.

On flute I C nat roll thus:

oxo xxx
oxx xxx
oxo xxx
xoo xxx (or maybe xoo oxx)
oxo xxx

quite easy, actually.

On whistle I C nat roll thus:

oxx xox
oxx xxx
oxx xox
xoo xox
oxx xox

a little trickier, but still not awfully hard with a tad of practice.

I think the first of those should work better for you than what you are currently doing. Have a go and let us know.

Rolls on middle D with a C nat lower note tap equivalent are similarly possible with either flute or whistle version if you don’t want a 2nd 8ve cran for some reason.

BTW, oxo xxx is the most commonly best (in tune/strongest tone) C nat cross fingering on flute. Some flutes do work better with oxx ooo, but they are in the minority, despite that being the most popular fingering. Try it!

3

I’m working on this with Knocknagow. Here’s how my flute seems to like it:

OXX OXX
OXX XXX
OXX OXX
XXX OXX
OXX OXX

Seems simple, but I’m not very quick at it yet!

Jennie

4

I’ll have to be reeeeeally bored, and out of new tunes to learn, before I’ll bother about a c-nat roll on flute or whistle.

5

:laughing: I couldn’t agree more.

Eric

6

This is how I get it done

OXX OOO
XXX OOO
OXX OOO
OXX XXX
OXX OOO

similar to Jemtheflute’s example for the whistle.

It’s actually two taps instead of the usual cut and tap for a roll.

How do you do a C# roll Jemtheflute? I’ve got a keyless flute, and I’ve heard of someone doing a C# roll by quickly sliding a finger or fingers back and forth across the C hole. I’ve never tried to master that, but I guess it would be cool to be able do it. Do you use keys?

7

OK. Bloomfield and Jayhawk and anyone else of similar persuasion - I fully concede that over-the-break rolls are not part of the accepted canon of ITM flute and whistle technique. However, until about 40 years ago, neither were crans, apparently.

Rolls on C nat and C# are not intrinsically unidiomatic in ITM - other instruments use them, e.g. fiddle and assorted squeezeboxes, whereon they present no technical special case in terms of fingering. Where such notes crop up in places and lengths that would, in terms of musical context, normally qualify for a finger articulation or “ornament”, the only reason they may not receive one on flute or whistle is because of a perceived difficulty in executing one. If a player can execute one in a musically satisfactory way, why not? It is perfectly possible technically, and although certainly somewhat more awkward than most other rolls, they are not that difficult. A few hours practice can achieve proficiency at them - no worse than for those people who mysteriously struggle with L hand rolls on A or B - and once you’ve cracked it, the bicycle riding learning analogy holds good. It is only an extension of the kind of finger co-ordination that we all seek to achieve. It doesn’t sound “wrong” or detract from the music. So, I ask again, why not? Sure, you don’t “need” it, but if one wishes to try it and is prepared to do the modicum of work it takes to master, go for it. And there’s always the old Everest dictum!

If one gets that finger co-ordination over the break sorted, one can for example also do taps from C# to D, ooo ooo to oxx xxx to ooo ooo, with all five fingers involved tapping simultaneously. A Cnat to D tap is easy with either flute (oxo xxx to oxx xxx to oxo xxx) or whistle (oxx xox to oxx xxx to oxx xox) - only one finger tapping in either case. Even if you use oxx ooo for c nat, you can still do a three-finger tap to D if you work to get it clean - and then go on to incorporate it in rolls.

Ideally, one’s multi-finger co-ordination should get to be that good anyway!

Rolls on middle D to the C# or C nat work too, as I said before.

D with C# below thus:

oxx xxx
xxx xxo
oxx xxx
ooo ooo or ooo xxx
oxx xxx

D with C nat below thus:

oxx xxx
xxx xxo
oxx xxx
oxo xxx
oxx xxx

(I use this last one on both flute and whistle although I usually otherwise use/advocate oxx xox for C nat on whistle, because I already have it from flute and it works OK - and I haven’t done the practise to get what I should logically prescribe for whistle off smoothly, which would be:

oxx xxx
xxx xxo
oxx xxx
oxx xox
oxx xxx

which is more awkward, though no more so than some crans and it could be mastered as well as anything else here.)

To answer Mahanpots’s Q, I usually do a roll on C# (on either instrument) with the normal note fingerings, thus:

ooo ooo
oxx xxx
ooo ooo
xoo ooo
ooo ooo

but you can satisfactorily fudge it with:

ooo ooo or ooo xxx
oxx xxx
ooo xxx
xoo xxx
ooo ooo or ooo xxx

No, no keys are involved - actually there isn’t a key that would help on a normal 8-key. (Not talking here about using the low C#/nat on the foot.)

Without digressing into tunes in “unusual” key-signatures that create more opportunity/demand for such things, C natural rolls are really handy and effective in, just for a few examples off the top of my head, Humours of Ballyloughlin, Pipe on the Hob, Banish Misfortune, Congress Reel. My own tune, The Sullane Jig (clip link in my signature) makes a feature of C nat rolls. I use a C# roll in The Contradiction Reel - see the recent thread on that for a clip. Can’t think off-hand of any more C# roll examples - will edit them in if I recall some.

8

Jem - it’s not that there is anything entirely wrong with such a roll, but I’ve got loads of much more important stuff I really need to work on…so rolls on Cnat or C# come in about, oh, last place on my list of things to learn.

Eric

9

On my CB Folk Flute this seems to work well:

OXX XOX
OXX XXX
OXX OXX
OXX XXX
OXX XOX

Sam

10

Eric, fair enough! I wouldn’t try to suggest that anyone ought to learn them - especially if they aren’t already at a pretty advanced stage. That said, I do to a fair extent go with the line of thought that says, if you come across a particular technical challenge in the context of what you are doing anyway, that is as good a time as any to seek to master it, regardless of your general proficiency. Then you will have it available for further use and it will have improved an aspect of your technique generally.

I do take issue with people who take the “it’s un-Irish/not traditional” line with the subtext being that one should not try to do it ever. We wouldn’t be cranning if we took that approach: I like crans! I’d acknowledge there is some parallel here with the discussion (recent on the Whistle Forum) about tonguing, especially the Brian Finneganesque uber-tonguing mode, in that it is not a pre-existing part of the traditional technique on flute and whistle, but I don’t think these rolls have an effect of changing the style significantly, nor a noticeable aesthetic impact, as the extreme tonguing thing does. I don’t think a listener would even notice “ah, s/he’s doing C nat rolls” listening to them done proficiently, in the way s/he would notice “ah, s/he’s triple tonguing”.

Sam, what you suggest works fine, but it is more like a cran - there is no visit to a lower tone, only two higher ones (cdcdc), so whilst it will substitute fine for a roll, it doesn’t sound like one. (This is not a criticism, just an analysis.)

11

Jemtheflute wrote:

oxo xxx
oxx xxx
oxo xxx
xoo xxx (or maybe xoo oxx)
oxo xxx

quite easy, actually.

On whistle I C nat roll thus:

oxx xox
oxx xxx
oxx xox
xoo xox
oxx xox

I don’t understand what or why you’re doing what you’re doing when you go from oxo xxx to xoo xxx on flute or oxx xox to xoo xox on whistle. Why are you lifting finger or fingers on your left hand?

I get a nice sound with:
whistle:
oxx xox
oxx xxx
oxx xox
xxx xox
oxx xox

On flute, I play c natural like oxx ooo, but if I played it like you do, I would probably play a c natural roll like this:

oxo xxx
xxo xxx
oxo xxx
oxx xxx
oxo xxx

I figure since a cut on c natural:

oxo xxx
ooo xxx
oxo xxx

doesn’t really “cut it” (ha ha), I “cut” with a tap:

oxo xxx
xxo xxx
oxo xxx

So, my c-nat roll in your fingering of c-nat would be

oxo xxx
xxo xxx
oxo xxx
oxx xxx
oxo xxx

Why do you lift those fingers?


I’m not saying you shouldn’t, but to me it seems difficult whereas my way seems easier. Perhaps we could meet for a pint and exchange techniques. My wife and I will be coming to Ireland soon after Christmas, and we talk about visiting friends in England; maybe we could slip over your way.

Michael

12

Michael, I’d be delighted to meet up with you - or anyone else off the forum who happens past my neck of the woods.

The answers to your questions about why I lift which fingers I do would be very easy to demonstrate but are rather harder to explain - bear with me and I’ll try

You wrote: I don’t understand what or why you’re doing what you’re doing when you go from oxo xxx to xoo xxx on flute or oxx xox to xoo xox on whistle. Why are you lifting finger or fingers on your left hand?

To get a B or something very close as the lower, 4th step of the roll.

You wrote: I get a nice sound with:
whistle:
oxx xox
oxx xxx
oxx xox
xxx xox
oxx xox

The 4th step of that gives a very low tone (flat F#) as the lower passing note (tap equivalent) of the roll - it works, but sounds pretty odd to my ear - not saying it’s “wrong” mind. My fingerings give a slightly flat B as the lower element - sounding much more comparable to rolls elsewhere in the scale - it’s a normal roll pattern of pitch changes - what I play is cdcbc in effect.

Before anyone jumps in, I’m well aware of and have expounded myself upon the theory that the cuts and taps in ITM, including as constituents of rolls and crans, are not in-scale accurate, pitch specific “notes”, but breaks in the sound of the main note. I have also observed elsewhere (as have others), however, that sometimes the pitch of such cuts and taps has a noticeable effect within the mode of a tune, so that even if they are not in-tune notes of the scale, some effects are more or less agreeable. Certainly big pitch jumps in cuts or taps away from the main note are noticeably different from small, closely neighbouring ones.

You wrote: On flute, I play c natural like oxx ooo, but if I played it like you do, I would probably play a c natural roll like this:

oxo xxx
xxo xxx
oxo xxx
oxx xxx
oxo xxx

Similarly to your last example, that produces a pattern that sounds cAcdc - works, but inverts the normal roll pattern of home-up-home-down-home in pitch steps - doesn’t sound like a roll.

You wrote: I figure since a cut on c natural:

oxo xxx
ooo xxx
oxo xxx

doesn’t really “cut it” (ha ha), I “cut” with a tap:

oxo xxx
xxo xxx
oxo xxx

So, my c-nat roll in your fingering of c-nat would be

oxo xxx
xxo xxx
oxo xxx
oxx xxx
oxo xxx


You are right that lifting L2 in the first example immediately above makes virtually no difference to the sound (about a 1/4 tone from C nat to a very flat C#)

You are also right that a cut in the sense of lifting a finger cannot here provide a higher tone. However, your proposal of tapping L1 actually gives a significantly lower tone - a flat A. If you tap L3 as I do in the “cut” (2nd) step (just as you tap R2 in the whistle equivalent I gave based on c nat = oxx xox), you actually get a d above the c nat! (Further, it is the normal and familiar change from cross fingered c nat to d - no “funny stuff” going on with the fingers.) You then suggest to tap L3 in the 4th step, getting a higher note (d) there where you want a lower one. My fingering (xoo ooo or, easier/lazier, xoo xxx) gets you that lower note, a B.

Incidentally, if you use oxx ooo for c nat (sharp and weak on most flutes and whistles), the c nat roll would be:

oxx ooo
oxx xxx
oxx ooo
xoo ooo
oxx ooo

which works just fine (I use it on my piccolo, which does have oxx ooo as its optimal c nat cross fingering) - and you can leave R3 on right through if you like.

I worked out what I do many years ago when playing with a fiddler and trying to play in close parallel to him. I had to work on them quite hard to begin with, but they didn’t take that long to crack and now they’re just part of what I do. They are no harder than other initially awkward finger changes.

Try them in slow motion and compare the sounds produced with your versions.

I’m not especially proselytising them here, just answering the original question about how they may be done if wanted, and I quite accept that many folk don’t want. But they are perfectly feasible and effective if wanted and worked for.

I’ll try to sort out some video demo clips if I can, but probably won’t have time over the weekend.

13

IMHO, Cnat rolls on the flute are a bit of a “parlor trick”. Technically feasible yes and not un-traditional per se, but a bit extraneous to the music and not really worth the bother. Of course, the technical process of learning to roll Cnat roll would certainly have some positive impact on one’s overall playing. However, if you want an excerise to challenge you fingers and noggin, would it not make a lot more sense (esp. for beginner/intermediate players as we all are here) to practice ornamentation and techniques that are called for on a regular basis vs. something obscure like a Cnat roll? The same goes for stuff like obsessing over how to use arcane crossfingering to get perfect intonation in the third octave or to play in weird keys on a D flute. Nice to know but not need to know in the context of playing Irish music on the flute.

Cheers,

SteveB

14

Bear with me SteveB.

Or just ignore the post. :slight_smile:

Jemtheflute:

I understand why you do it now; I’m not sure how yet. But I don’t think it’s that important.

I was playing the Humours of Ballyloughlin a year or more ago, and the thought occurred to me to put a roll in the second section of the tune on the C-natural.

In figuring out how to do it, I wasn’t concerned with the notes I was hitting, but more concerned with the effect of the roll in the tune and if it sounded nice. To me it has the same effect rhthmically as other rolls. It doesn’t sound like a cran, and it didn’t take much effort to learn it. I think there are subtle differences in flutes perhaps that might make it sound different on a different flute. But to me, I like the way it works.

In answer to Gabriel’s initial post,

His technique of:

(Don’t look SteveB, but here’s some more x’s and o’s)

OXX|XOX
OOO|XOX
OXX|XOX
OXX|XXX
OXX|XOX

doesn’t work on my flute. There’s not enough “blip” with the first cut.

I hope I got all my 0’s and x’s placed correctly.

I’d like to hear an example Gabriel.

Humours of Ballyloughlin (with C-nat. rolls)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/45599210362bdb/

15

mahanpots wrote:

Bear with me SteveB.

Or just ignore the post.

Fair enough. In retrospect, my comments and those of a few others are a bit OT. The original question was how to play a Cnat roll, not whether one should bother to do so.

My earlier rant about the Cnat roll being a “parlour trick” notwithstanding, guess what I’m going to try as soon as I get home!

BTW, very nice playing on the Humours of Ballyloughlin mahanpots.

cheers,

SteveB

16

What was that I wrote about the “Everest effect”? Have fun, and let us know what you make of it.

Steve, I second your appreciation of Michael’s Ballyloughlin.

I suppose, since I mentioned it, I should put one up of the same tune - strictly for comparative, not competitive reasons! I’ll see what I can do.
It’s one of my favourite tunes.

EDIT: ooops, I may not be able to do any sound clips for a while - my minidisc player won’t record - I suspect the burning laser has packed up or the datasave function, as the sound is coming in from the mic fine and it appears to be recording according to the level indicators, but it won’t play back the new “recordings” (which appear to be blank at this stage on the indicators), though old ones are fine. B****r!

17

The guy I learned from back in the 70’s had a very old-sounding style, but C natural rolls were a standard technique to him.
Since he usually left his bottom ring finger on the whistle for G, A, B, and C anyhow, his fingering was:
oxx oox
oxx xxx
oxx oox
xxx xxx
oxx oox
Now there are a few tunes when, up to speed, I have difficulty executing this (Bunker Hill comes to mind) so I came up with my own funky method which sounds fine up to speed but doesn’t make much sense slowed down. It is:
oxx oox
oxx xxx
oxx oxx
oxx xxx
oxx oox
which is really just a “grip” borrowed from Scottish piping. In effect, I play a D which itself is cut into two by a cut done with the lower-hand index finger. Up to speed, it sounds roll-like, as there are three C’s cut with D’s. This type only works on fast reels, on jigs I do a “real” roll on C.

18

looks like what i do. works for me too.

19

I just converted Gabriel’s tune ABC to dots and had a look, to bring this back round to the original target. We’ve discussed, demonstrated and established various possible techniques, so what about the specific context Gabriel asked about “Nollaig Casey’s Reel”?

Having looked at it properly, on 8-key I might leave those low Cs as they are and either cran them or do a push and slightly cut short the crotchet. However, those low Bs (unless you have a B foot) go kinda out of scope, as do the low Cs for those without a full-set 8-key or for whistlers, so you have to find an effective way of flipping the passage, or parts of it, up the octave. There are anyway some similar figures on the middle c nat in the B music.

Putting both the low C nats and Bs up the octave, my roll works fine for me, but I think Pan’s cran style roll substitute also works quite nicely in this particular context, maybe better than the roll - I even tried it with a third blip inserted - use almost a normal bottom D cran sequence but with L1 raised throughout, ending back on the c nat fingering of your choice, in my case on flute, thus:
oxo xxx
oxx xxx
oxx oxx
oxx xxx
oxx xox
oxx xxx
oxo xxx

Back to the general discussion of possible ways of getting a roll effect, Rama and Michael, I can do the sequence you suggest and it does work, but I’m puzzled as to why you opt for a home-down-home-up-home sequence? Try the same fingerings in the other order - swap steps 2 and 4 over to get:

oxx ooo
oxx xxx
oxx ooo
xxx ooo
oxx ooo

cdcGc instead of cGcdc - same or less difficulty, different, more roll-like effect. Of course, as both work you could mix and match!

20

jem, when i was first introduced to it, i was shown the sequence you have detailed above. yet when i was learning/practicing it, my fingers were inclined to do the opposite as i mentioned in my previous post. and like you, i experimented with both. i found i could find play it either way without much difference, so i play it whichever way comes more naturally to me. my guess is that when attempting a roll (any note), my brain is geared towards having the upper finger move first and then the lower finger(s) like in a typical cut/tap sequence.