Afraid I’m with Casey on this one as well. Smacks of knee-jerk censorship to me. We should be adult enough to tolerate people expressing views that may oppose our own without running to the teacher. I’d like to hear from the folks who complained - show yourselves! This is no time for cowardice. Cheers,
Rob
Again with Casey, the political comments were incidental to what was a relevant, and obviously, very interesting flute discussion particularly as any decisions made by USA flute-makers are likely to prevail long after the current $ crises has passed.
Political, obviously. I think some people post assuming
that everybody here shares their political views.
Perhaps from that point of view these statements
don’t seem political, as all right-thinking
people obviously agree with them.
Not so. All sorts of people post
on every board, including Republicans.
Best to post statements like the one above in a venue
where those who disagree can answer them
without breaking the rules.
One issue with moving this thread to the political board is that, for many of us, the flute board is the whole of our community on C&F. I did a quick scan of the political board, and it’s nothing I would ever waste my time on. The overwhelming majority of threads are based on political topics, rather than being threads on music-related subjects that also happen to feature political content in some of the responses. To my way of thinking, there’s not much difference between moving a conversation between members of the C&F flute board community to the political thread, and killing it outright.
Personally, I’d rather not read the sort of blunt responses that got this thread moved in an otherwise flute-related discussion. Note to posters: be more subtle! You can get your point across without naming names; try a bit of gentle humor, rather than ham-fisted attacks on specific groups or individuals. You’re asking to have the thread moved, otherwise.
As for the response when things get off-topic: I would consider it a much more appropriate, reasonable response to either delete the individual posts which crossed the line, or (preferably) to contact the poster and ask him or her to reconsider. Meanwhile, let’s not pretend that this board is so incredibly busy that the only solution to controversy is summary action. A little attention to detail would have helped us all avoid this regrettable confrontation. Cheers,
Rob
p.s. edited to correct my bloody typing!
I’m happy to say that I’m entirely with Rob on this - he says better what I tried to get at in my previous, plus some.
I.D.10-t makes a good point too, though.
It allows this thread to exist, had it been locked or deleted we would not be allowed to discuss that action.
I rather thought the thread’s fate was sealed with
The moderating staff does seem to be occupied with other parts of their lives at this point.
Does that mean you were one of the complainers, Denny?
Overall the thread was a to the point discussion of the matter at hand. Hardly anything there to warrant deportation. As I said above, the moderators are quite happy to let a post stand that wishes the chairman of the Stormont assembly dead (not that I have any sympathy for the man but as a matter of moderation it seems odd to allow that to pass and not the present thread).
So you know, there was nothing “summary” or “knee jerk” about this move, nor was it simply a decision on my part (my first inclination was to simply post a warning about political content and watch to see where things led). The other mods and I received complaints about political statements being made. We discussed it among ourselves, took a look at the thread in question, and decided to move it in accordance with forum policy.
This really isn’t a “free speech” or “censorship” issue. This site is privately owned, and the owner sets the rules…in this case, that discussions of a political nature belong on one of the politics forums. People don’t have the “right” to say whatever they want, wherever they want, on a privately owned discussion forum, any more than they have the “right” to force a magazine to publish their political views. It’s rather nice that Dale’s set up a forum here where such things CAN be discussed freely…in fact, that was done in order to keep political discussion OFF the other forums while still allowing people to air their views freely.
As Jim said, not everyone here shares the same political viewpoint. When a person makes a statement such as the “fuhrer” one (which is what pushed it over the edge into “political” territory), it forces those who may find such statements offensive to either violate forum policy themselves in order to respond or bite their tongues and “take it.” That’s simply not a fair situation.
Personally, I think it would be a much greater violation to edit out someone’s statements than it is to simply move a discussion to a more appropriate venue…and it’s certainly preferable to locking threads, which was the other option. If Casey himself wants us to edit out the political comments and then have the discussion moved back here, that’s probably doable…it’s his thread, though, and I for one am not going to edit it without the permission of the author.
Redwolf
I don’t want to get into an unseemly public dispute with the moderators, especially since I had nothing to do with the original thread or the responses in question. Careful reading of my suggestions would show that I’m actually in favor of allowing the posters themselves the opportunity to edit their own writing. I suggest that this opportunity be offered, with the aim of having the thread restored. Thanks,
Rob
No, it does not.
moi? Shirley? 
I must be new here… 
Casey’s mentioning the Fuhrer is, historically here at C&F, enough to end the thread.
I think this is a straw man. Everything is political from one point of view or another. The great anti-Republican chiff & fipple conspiracy is nonsense, of course, and I know plenty of Republicans who refer to Bush and Cheney in the same terms. Not that I think the remark should have been made in the original thread. But that’s the remark, not the topic of the thread.
I would move it back. The point of the political forum is not to quarantine controversial posts about flutes or whistles or bag pipes, but to keep purely political stuff separate (talking about elections or scandals or what have you). If the topic itself about flutes or the flute market or flute players, etc., the thread belongs here. And if someone gets their knickers in a twist about language used or political asides (that go beyond the reasonable posting guidelines), than those posts should be edited or removed, not the thread moved. On-topic threads don’t belong in the off-topic space, even if they get political.
To me, deleting individual posts or “gently encouraging” individuals to edit their statements is more akin to censorship than the chosen course of action.
The only argument against the moving of the thread that seems to me to hold any water is Mr. Laban’s:
To that end I would point out first the inevitable fallibility of moderation, and second the fact that there were specific complaints about the particular thread in question. So while some threads containing political material may be inadvertently overlooked, those that draw the attention of multiples of board constituents will, as a matter of course, be acted upon judiciously. And why should it be different?
I will take this opportunity to point out that this is the internet we’re talking about, people. I’d venture as far as to use the phrase “Get over it.”
It would be wonderful if we could read every thread on every forum here, but there’s just not enough hours in the day. Moderators on any discussion forum (and I’ve moderated several) rely greatly on forum members to flag them to potential problems. And even then, action isn’t typically taken until the mods have had a chance to discuss the situation (well, unless the post were something like a link to por*n or really obvious spam…that would be taken care of as soon as a mod was made aware of it).
The bottom line is, if you see something you think is over-the-top or inappropriate, TELL somebody. I, for one, didn’t even see the Stormont comment.
Redwolf
I expected the topic would be moved from the moment I first read it. I don’t think that having your topic moved indicates any kind of negative judgment call about it. I think that’s the mistake being made to interpret some kind of judgment.
In any case, it’s easily found in the other forum and at least in that forum you can be free to let your political opinions out with abandon.
According to policy, this thread is toast, as well. Read it quick!
Not censorship. Moderation. Period.
If there were to have been censorship, the thread would not have been moved, but obliterated. That’s censorship. If you want to post on the thread in question, then go to the Poli Forum. No big deal. It’s sitting there waiting for you, alive and kicking, and NOT censored.
And another thing: another published policy you may not like, but the moderators can’t do anything about, is the the C&F rule of not permitting threads discussing moderated or deleted threads. If you don’t like it, take it up with Dale.
This case is closed pending review.
A worthwhile thread, "Dollar is Toast,"was started here in the flute forum because it was primarily about the economics of flute making and the impact of certain economic issues on the flute market. However, some remarks of a political/controversial nature in the thread caused the moderators to move it, properly, I think, to the Political forum. This was an unusual situation. Most threads that belong in the Political forum are completely off-topic (off the topic of music). This one was a thread that was actually mostly on-topic, but which certainly could reasonably be expected to generate purely political discussion because of some particular marks.
The thread is open and active and the only controversy has been about where it properly belongs. Accordingly, I have established this thread with a link which will allow visitors to the flute forum to make a quick jump over to the political forum to read or participate in the thread.
So, here it is:
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=54759
Another possible solution, carefully considered, was editing the thread to remove the remarks that caused it to be moved in the first place. My first impulse was to offer to “clean up” the thread. But, I think that’s an activity that moderators can’t get into doing. Editing posts is tricky business. You have to edit the post. You have to check all the responses and edit them if they refer to the original post. Etc.
A reminder that this controversy–and the emotion associated with it–is about where a thread belongs on a Internet music forum. At the risk of minimizing the pain and anguish of those involved–it’s not that big of a deal.
Regarding the cries of censorship, we’ve been over that a million times and it’s just worth doing again. All we did is move a thread. Now, I’ve returned a heading to the flute forum, so all one has to do to participate in the thread is click on the link–read and participate–and then return to the flute forum.
Thanks.
Dale