Hi - making (maiming?) a new reed - going well, but cannot get C nat (cross-fingered) without moving reed out so far rest of chanter not balanced well.
Thanks to any who might help…
DJones
Rediscovered Cnat when I found the staple too far up into reed…
… then found red too long, so chopped off end of reed…
… then lost Cnat again…
Oh, well, we’ll get there sooner or later…
DJones
Well, if you found your Cnat, whose Cnat is this on my carpet? 
djm
How much did you chop? Type of chanter? Length of reed before and after chop? How long is your scrape? Width of reed? Type of staple? (rolled or tubing) How deeply is staple inserted now? All are helpful in offering advice…
How much did you chop? Type of chanter? Length of reed before and after chop? How long is your scrape? Width of reed? Type of staple? (rolled or tubing) How deeply is staple inserted now?
- Chopped a two spider’s legs width with boots
- Dixon chanter
- Reed that much longer than Childress reed before chop - chopped to match length
- tubing staple
- staple now inserted about 32nd of an inch from the curvey part (I had moved it out and rewrapped to resurrect my Cnat)
After moving the staple out a bit, my Cnat returned. Then, I needed to sharpen things up a bit, so chop-chop-chop.
Now my Cnat is back on djm’s carpet somewhere in Canada. Everything else seems nice. I then put the pipes away and figured I’d figure it out tomorrow.
Sometimes when having this situation in the past, I got my Cnat back when I withdraw the reed from chanter a bit.
‘nother idea: when I don’t shave the lips’ ends down to super thin, the reed has a nice, maybe more quiet buzzzz that is pleasant.
cheers,
DJones
Curious to learn what effect trimming the tip of your reed might have on the Cnat. I seem to recall that being the cure for a flat, or sinking back D…but nothing about the Cnat.
If the reed was flat, and trimming the lips I would think would tend to sharpen things, not to mention strengthening the tone. As for the chop itself, I never tend to use a knife to shorten the reed - I find it’s a little too drastic for my liking. I’ve found reasonable success in shortening a reed in using a bit of fine grade wet/dry sandpaper (dry of course!) and sanding gently to remove a bit of material. I find much better control over exactly how much material I’m removing that way. Also, I’ve sometimes found that just a few passes to ‘square up’ the tips of the slips can improve the tonality of a weaker reed.
About the insertion depth: “staple now inserted about 32nd of an inch from the curvey part” doesn’t tell us much. typically, I insert my staple 7/8" into the slips and fine tune from there. If I find a need to move the staple in or out, it’s generally only to tune the two octaves relative to each other, and not to try and tune one note.
I assume you’re refferring to CJ Dixon’s work and not Tony Dixon…yes? Have you emailed or given a quick call to your maker and discussed the troubles? He may very well be able to offer a solution particular to his chanter…or perhaps not. 
I suppose the question that really begs asking is - what’s the issue with the Cnat you’re having? Is it gone completely? Only weak in tone? Flat? Sharp? If one of the latter two - try some alternate fingerings. It may offer a nice fixt, and some interesting color to a very expressive note on your chanter.
All the best!
Bri~
Thanks for your advice. Once I fixed the Cnat, I chopped the lips to try to resolve another issue and then lost it again.
Yes, it’s a CJ Dixon chanter - a nice chanter. I have some reeds that work in it well (and he sent it with one that works fine) enough to know that the chanter specs are OK with the chanter and that it’s my reed making that is off. This particular project is for reed-making practice.
The issue I was having was that lifting the F# finger while playing C# did not give me a Cnat. I have noticed this with my reeds sometimes – probably a flaw in my design – but I get my Cnat again when I bring the reed out of the chanter a bit…sometimes
Again, thanks for your help. I have been experimenting and learning as I go. This forum is a great place to learn things. I have not been using 7/8", for example, as an insertion depth (it’s not in any of my manuals I have noticed) and I learned this from your post. JESmith sent me a great kit with examples to learn from. I am very grateful to all of the kind participants of this forum.
DJones
Alright, but I’m still a bit confused:
“The issue I was having was that lifting the F# finger while playing C# did not give me a Cnat.”
So what DID it give you? 
Was it close? Only flat or sharp?
I used to play a two finger Cnat, only lifting the F# finger, but found that I prefer the tone of two fingers on the bottom hand: the F# and the top E fingers. The note was flatter and closer in tune, and has a bit more volume and overtone. Sometimes you can even play it off the knee which changes it’s feel even further.
Have you tried any of these other fingerings?
How far have you been inserting the staple into the slips now? And if you’ve been in touch with Chris, have you asked him for the exact specs he likes to shoot for in his reeds? Your best bet is to mimic what he’s done and try to get that bit down first I would suggest - before moving on to much experimenting with your reed design. Otherwise, you’ll be chasing your tail in the dark so to speak. It’s pretty hard to know where your going, (reed-wise of course!) if you don’t understand where you’ve been ya know?
Not all chanters finger Cnat the same. Here are some other combinations that you might want to try:
C# plus G
C# plus G and F#
C# plus F#
C# plus F# and E
djm
I never figured on alterantive cross-fingerings, but am hesitant to learn another version. I will certainly experiment with the alternatives you both describe. It’s nice to have options. As a GHB piper, I’m used to rigid fingerings learned to play automatically. I don’t want to think too much whilst I’m playing. 
CJ’s chanter takes the same reed as a Childress chanter – he sent it with one that plays all right, including Cnat. I have been following the specs for the Childress reed and I have made some nice reeds for my Childress chanter that came with my pipes. (The Dixon chanter is an extravagant extra chanter I wanted to also use to practice setting reeds and tuning differently).
I haven’t been down to work on the reed since our discussion started. Will follow your advice and report later-- wife is indicating she’d like to see Sunday chores done. 
cheers,
Dave
Ah yes, the ever present “Honey Do” list. 
Chores done - did some more work on reed you’ve been helping me with. made good progress.
I would make a horrible scientific researcher: I do not recall the precise steps I took nor the order thereof. I do know that it involved some sanding, clipping, staple narrowing, and so forth.
It’s not balanced in the chanter yet (flat notes, as you’ll hear), but I have a reasonably good Cnat and something I think I can bring into balance tomorrow with not too much major excavations of cane (both C# and Cnat played) - the back D is taped to flatten it:
http://www.loweradirondack.net/mp3/reed_in_progress.mp3
Bottom D gurgles unless I let off pressure more than I’d like (I played that at the end to illustrate).
Thank you again for your help. I think this one need not be thrown out.
Dave Jones
First suggestioj - open the bridle a bit. See what that does to both the stability of that bottom D, and to the overall tuning in the chanter. Little steps here and I mean LITTLE! Don’t sand anymore, don’t cut anymore, and don’t scrape anymore. No more tinkering with the staple, no more adjustments of any sort till you’ve had a chance to play this one in a bit.
A few notes.
Tone - sounds good, though always tough to tell for certain on computer mics and speakers. But nothing that sound horribly out of place in that regard.
Tuning - too early to tell. You’ve got to give your new creation some time to breathe. Don’t expect it to play perfectly in tune and quietly and easily right off the mark…give it time - usually a month or two is best if you can make it that long.
Fingering - spend some time working out some different fingering patterns. You may have one reed that likes a Cnat played one way, and a different reed (in the same chanter mind you) that like it another. This is the joy of piping.
Sounds like you’re coming on quite well however, and my best wishes to you for diving in and working out your reed. I’ve always mantained that one of the best ways to udnerstand what they can do, can’t do and simply WON’T do is to dive in head first and make a bunch yourself.
Cheers! And do keep us posted!
Bri~
All the dorking with your reed has probably compromised it for no reason. Try putting a rush into the staple, a fat guitar string, maybe even doubled over. Childress reeds themselves are very predictable and stable in playing an F# vented Cnat in great tune–wide bore concert D chanters anyway. But I’ve run into the same problem you seem to describe even using Bruce’s own staples making my own, with an unstable Cnat using only the F# vent. An F# with G open vent does produce a good Cnat in those few aberrant reeds I’ve made. This latter is the most common, if not entirely standard fingering for narrow bore chanters you should note however.
I don’t buy your GHB-based strict fingering argument except that essentially all wide bore D’s use the F# only vent, yours do as well, and there’s no point settling for a reed that won’t finger a Cnat properly in a chanter that should play it easily with standard fingering. Apart from that, go back to Highland pipes if you can’t get your head around cheating fingering schemes nonstop all during play for effect and intonation on the fly. That’s basically the way you play UP.
In any case, try the rush trick, see if Cnat plays true and stably, I don’t know exactly why it works but it has worked several times incredibly well. What you’ve got is an internal head or staple problem, volume, length, width etc, a dimensional problem, almost certainly. Something not quite right there internally, not externally. If anything you do externally helps it, it’s probably at the expense of fouling up other performance characteristics.
Royce … er … Donald, that’s a nice looking chanter. What’s the top right key for, high D?
djm
Looks like it might be a Bb key.
Opening beer bottles. I have several sturdy keys as you can well see designed for fitting several sizes of bottles.
