Recorders are Boring - BBC Radio 4 News

Whistle
1

C&Fers in the Uk may have caught this gem already, but:

On the BBC Radio 4 News this morning was a report that 8-14 year old children in UK schools are being put off music for life after being made to play recorders, because they are considered banal and naff.

There followed a short and charming rendition by a young lass on her recorder, where every note was tongued, 1/4 beat, as per the sheet music.

Is this an opening for the Clarke’s Meg to be introduced into the school curriculum?

In fairness, I think it’s the music they are taught, and the way it is taught, that is tedious, not the medium through which they play it, but it’s sad to think that the recorder isjust as awful now as it was when I first heard a recorder group playing Freres Jacques in cannon over 25 years ago.

There was a discussion thread on this very subject a few months back, with some very interesting views and insights from music teachers who have to teach recorder to unwilling pupils - any updates on the issue now it has been debated on UK National Radio?

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I don’t know if MAKING kids play whistles would be even better. Anything I was made to do as a child I didn’t like either. You said yourself that they are "put off music for life after being made to play recorders. What’s to say that the same thing won’t happen with whistles. I’m not trying to get things all fired up I’m just curious.

Jack Murphy

p.s. have you ever heard Carlos Nunez play the recorder?

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I didn’t start to learn music for real till I was 25 thanks to England’s woeful recorder methods - at the age of 8 I decided music wasn’t for me (how wrong I was).

To be fair, it’s the method as well - the education authorities should go to Eire for a jolly and see how they do it there.

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Jack and Nick,

I think we’re all on the same tracks on this one. The Recorder is not a bad instrument per se, but the way it is used makes it detested by the vast majority of pupils (and teachers and parents too).

The question is, can the bad stigma be dispelled, or would it be better to change the teaching methods, and the instrument at the same time? The recorder is more complicated to play than the whistle anyway, so why have that added complexity in an introductory instrument?

One aspect of the discussion we had last time this came up, was that a cheap recorder of reliable quality (usually a Yamaha) is more widely available than a whistle (see all the moans about Generations quality control). Plus, the one whistle aimed at children, the Sweetone, usually comes in bright colours that shout “toy, gimmick” to the children.

The Meg, on the other hand, seems to be cheap & of reliable quality, tuneable to a degree, and not garishly coloured. So this could become the new standard for intro-level music classes, if the changes could be made. It even comes in C and D, so the two whistles together could be used to show how sharps and flats come into different keys.

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I agree on the bad-method theory.

You can only play “row row row your boat” so many times before you toss your cherrios…


(not to mention that playing it in a group of 20 over and over can speed up such an effect)


I still have recorder phobia because of school. I’m lucky I wasn’t put off music all together, but I’ll never touch a recorder again. blech

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On 2002-07-03 04:24, MurphyStout wrote:
I don’t know if MAKING kids play whistles would be even better. Anything I was made to do as a child I didn’t like either. You said yourself that they are "put off music for life after being made to play recorders. What’s to say that the same thing won’t happen with whistles. I’m not trying to get things all fired up I’m just curious.

Jack Murphy

I think the whole thing is because they’re being made to do it. The kids will resent it if it’s forced on them no matter what it is…
-Ross

[ This Message was edited by: rossmpfc13 on 2002-07-03 09:53 ]

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In my son’s elementary school, they have a music class in a special room with keyboards. The headphones limit them to hearing their own keyboard, and if they get tired of “music”, they can at least have fun making wierd sounds…

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I agree. It is because the kids are being forced to do it. Music CAN NOT be forced! It has to come from inside… from your heart and soul. Anything forced is NOT beautiful or lovely to listen to or watch.

My Mom told me that when she was young, my Grandma made her play Piano and made her play Violin, and to this day, she hates Piano, and she doesn’t really care for Violin. She loves to sing though, and she’s got a wonderful voice. She also hates to read music- she plays/sings by ear or learns by rote. And she remembers when Grandma would get irritated because she was learning by ear/rote instead of reading the music and counting.

I remember being taught Piano by Grandma, and it was not fun. She was all the time like “you’re NOT counting…” or “You’re not playing it right…” That’s why I quit after a couple years of it. It wasn’t fun.

However, when I wanted to learn it (music) myself, there was no problem. And my Mom was very understanding, saying “if you don’t want to do it or wish to quit, that’s fine. I’m not going to force you to learn to play if you don’t want to do it.” She even said that when I joined band (Alto Sax), and she said “it’s your decision what you want to do” when I decided to quit. (I wasn’t being challenged.)

IMO, THAT’S the opinion people should have towards music… Let the kids learn to play if they want to, but DON’T force it. It won’t work if you do.

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Recorder is taught in my daughter’s school from first grade on, and most of the kids really enjoy it. I think a lot has to do with the teacher (who is a fun, dynamic man who clearly loves both kids and music), and with the fact that he gets them into playing interesting music fairly early on. Sometimes it’s hard to get them to put DOWN their recorders (especially at lunchtime, when they want to bring them onto the playground…a major no-no).

Redwolf

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On 2002-07-03 04:13, Martin Milner wrote:
naff

:confused:

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If only the medium of teaching/presenting the instrument were more interesting, maybe kids wouldn’t be so against the recorder. It is a lovely instrument (gasp! did i just say that?!). But what fun can a kid find in blowing random notes for a whole lesson? That was how my recorder life began. It ended the same time as primary school :slight_smile:

I still don’t understand how introducing the recorder (isn’t it a baroque instrument) will make children pursue a classical music interest.

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I still remember being taught the recorder in the final 3 years of primary school (around age 10 - 12 i think)…it was a cheapo (both ways) recorder we were told to buy… and some actually went ahead and bought better ones, better alto ones, etc. But that’s because they were in the school’s recorder troupe (uh oh…). I didn’t like the recorder, not many did…

In fact, most hated it (I did). Some not because of the awful squeaks that happen ( a lot), but mainly the other stuff they teach, some funny weird stuff (then).

When me and my friends went on to secondary school (equivalent to high school), it was kinda a relief not to have music lessons in the syllabus. Those who kept on playing music were those who had been playing from young.

So, in my opinion, music (in this form) shouldn’t really be taught, it should either be made in a way so people realise they can send their kids for music lessons or not, etc etc. No forcing.

Now, what was a recorder again?

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Martin - did you see the 6pm BBC News last night on tv? They actually had a whole thing about recorders in school killing off love of music! Never mentioned whistles though.

Whistling Southpaw - “Naff” is London slang for “no good” or “not very good”. e.g. “the US and English soccer teams did well in the World Cup, but the French were a bit naff” (they went out in the first round).

Nick

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Hi Nick,

Darn, I missed it! I was getting ready for my singing class, and playing polkas on my spanking new Dixon A!

Ah, well, I still think there’s a market opportunity there is someone’s willing to grab it! Whistle camps in the UK anyone?

What is so sad to me is that music speaks all languages, you only have to see my 2 1/2 year old niece jigging to a 3-piece jazz band to see that, and music in primary schools should open up the world of music, not be turning children off.

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Whistling Southpaw - “Naff” is London slang for “no good” or “not very good”. e.g. “the US and English soccer teams did well in the World Cup, but the French were a bit naff” (they went out in the first round).

Nick

Surprised me too: 1st round. But did anyone see the look on Kahn’s face when Ronaldo scored the second goal? :0 Where were the defence?! Brazil won…5 times..and Ronaldinho is being snapped up by Real Madrid :confused:

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I hope people won’t think I’m on a Brit-bashing gig, but I have a gut feeling that, in their efforts to be inclusive, non-judgemental etc., English primary school teachers are conditioned to aim for the lowest common denominator, and that this is evident in the low level of aspiration in music teaching. At an age where lots of Irish kids are already tinkering around with tin whistles etc., English kids seem to be doing very basic rhythm thingies with percussion instruments, and maybe the same attitude colours the way tunes on the recorder are taught.

Totally unscientific and not easily substantiated observation on my part, but perhaps someone who has more hands-on experience of music teaching in schools could comment.

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Roger - I couldn’t agree more. BTW, on this issue, bash away.

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Roger, the “lowest common denominator” teaching method isn’t restricted to just the UK. Canadian public schools operate on much the same mentality and, from what little I know of American public schools they don’t seem to be any better. To make matters worse, in Canada at least, music education is now regarded as non-essential so most schools have had their music program budgets pared back to almost nothing - in some case the schools have no music program at all. Its the same with Art programs.

Getting a bit back on topic. I played the recorded for four years when I was in elementary school (grades 5-8). I had a good teacher who was knowledgable, caring, and very patient. Unfortunately, my teacher was also a classical music purist/snob/zealot who was of the opinion that any music other than classical was crap and was not worth playing - according to her, it was “beneath the dignity of a true musician to play anything but classical music.” I did become a very proficient player and I fell in love with the sound of woodwinds, but I never developed the love for classical music that she did. In fact, I hated classical music (and I still don’t care much for it). Alas, my family was very non-musical (nobody in my family played an instrument) so I didn’t have any exposure to other genres of music - I don’t think occurred to me that there was other types of music I could play on my recorder. So, I finally quit the recorder because I couldn’t stand classical music any longer (my parents were very dissapointed). I didn’t pick up an instrument for 20+ years :frowning: I do regret it now because I wonder what calibre of player I would be if I had stuck with it. And, I can’t help but wonder if I had been exposed to musical genres other than classical would I have stuck with it?

In summary, in my case it wasn’t the instrument or the way I was taught that turned me off music. Rather, it was insidious musical elitism that did the damage. To this day any form of musical elitism angers me because IMO it does more harm than good.

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On 2002-07-04 12:22, Roger O’Keeffe wrote:
I hope people won’t think I’m on a Brit-bashing gig, but I have a gut feeling that, in their efforts to be inclusive, non-judgemental etc., English primary school teachers are conditioned to aim for the lowest common denominator, and that this is evident in the low level of aspiration in music teaching. At an age where lots of Irish kids are already tinkering around with tin whistles etc., English kids seem to be doing very basic rhythm thingies with percussion instruments, and maybe the same attitude colours the way tunes on the recorder are taught.

Totally unscientific and not easily substantiated observation on my part, but perhaps someone who has more hands-on experience of music teaching in schools could comment.

You may be right Roger, but on the other hand I have always assumed that there was a direct correlation between a) the programs of free music tuition in British schools (I don’t mean recorder classes of 30, but individual lessons or in groups of up to 4) with school instruments loaned to kids whose families couldn’t afford to pay for instruments or lessons and b) the country’s wealth of talented musicians, not only in the classical but in other fields too.

I don’t have hands-on experience but my sister does - she teaches cello in schools under one of these programs - and has coached many fine young musicians, some of whom have gone on to become professionals.

Of course these programs have been cut back further and further over the past 30 years, but in their heyday I think they were evidence of a very enlightened policy. Pre-Thatcherite, of course.

As far as the teaching of recorders goes, among the very basic problems are that kids are taught in entire clases, and that the teachers can often barely play the instrument themselves. This is certainly true in Canada. Serious recorder players I know (this by definition excludes those that try to play Irish music on them!) wish that their instrument was not taught to children.

I think that if the tin whistle merely replaced the recorder, without good teaching methods such as those that may be used in Ireland, we might all feel the same way very quickly.

(Hope I haven’t repeated what others have said - this has ended up being a long ramble and I confess I haven’t read all the other contributions.)

Steve

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I read another article on this issue in the Daily Mail yesterday (or was it the Mirror? I’m no good with names) that said recorder was the instrument chosen for schools because it is a) simple to play and b) cheap, about £7/ $10

The whistle must easily outscore the recorder on both points.

I agree with everything everyone has said above. I was fortunate that I only had a few weeks of scraping on a violin using the Suzuki method (if I recall correctly) before having private, one to one lessons. My parents paid for all my musical education, the schools I went to did nothing, not even recorder class (thank goodness). Though I hated the lessons at the time (and again, because it was all classical or nursery rhymes, and made to seema chore) I must have got more out of them than I realised at the time.