Questions about cork position, keys and models

Hi all!
It happens I have two “nach Meyer” flutes and I hace some issues regarding tuning, specially on A (first and second octave). On both flutes, A’s are sharp. It might be a problem with the instrument but it’s strange both flutes have the same one.
I was wondering if I’m missing using a key here, maybe? If not, what could possibly be the problem?

Apart from that, on the larger flute the sound is a bit dull… it might be because of some leaking (the Low C is definitely leaking, but not quite sure about the others). Anyway, I also had to change the cork and have a new one. I’m not sure about the position of it (it’s at 19mm now). I know it should be the diameter of the bore and it is there, but it still sounds like there is something wrong.

Maybe someone could tell me about these models (no maker’s name, sorry) and if there’s a particular fingering (with/without the keys) for tuning and sound or is that both flutes are not working properly… or it’s just a question of the flute player’s technique!

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Thanks!

A is a generally problematic note on simple-system flutes. If it’s fully in-tune blowing the same way as you blow a G, then it will be weak; if it’s strong it tends to be sharp. Of course some makers do a very good job working this out. My experience with nach Meyers is the same as yours – they tend to have very sharp A’s.

The note can be blown into tune with some effort, but there are some people who will re-voice these flutes.

Hey chas, thanks for the answer
I’m not quite sure about your first suggestion. A is not as strong as G, as far as I know… so, in order to get a more focused sound you would need to adjust you lips. In spite of this, they’re usually in tune both notes. On these flutes, both need that embouchure re-adjustment to get a proper tone, but they’re still sharp.

I’ve heard that there’re some issues with low Ds also which are sometimes flat. Maybe it’s because of different techniques of that time that needed the flute player to change your lips position. If this is right, it might be necessary to do the opposite with A, but the difference is so much that is difficult to play.

I also play the traverso (baroque flute) on which you definitely need to adjust your lips and emission for every key and (almost) every note. Anyway, you manage to get everything in tune with no REALLY big change (as with those A on the simple system).

I wonder why these nach-Meyer are like this!

It’s not just the Nach Meyers. The A is sharp on a lot of old flutes and plenty of newer ones as well; most of the Rudall and Rose flutes (and modern flutes based on that model) that I’ve played have an A that’s at least slightly sharp, more noticeably so in the second octave, and you have to flatten it by dropping your chin slightly so you’re blowing down more into the embouchure hole. The Rudalls also have a deliberately flat bottom D that is brought up to tune by raising your head slightly so you’re blowing more across the hole, plus blowing more strongly. The result is a really nice “open” or “free” bottom D; it takes a bit of practice to learn how to do it, but it becomes second nature.

Edited to add: for a bit of history about this, see Rick Wilson’s page here: http://www.oldflutes.com/19C-play.htm and http://www.oldflutes.com/19C-compare.htm

The need to vary your attack on certain notes to bring them in tune was seen as a feature, not a bug, by many people: there’s a great passage on the first page I linked to above about the individual notes on simple-system flutes being like different “vowels” as sung by a singer, thus the flute’s tone changed from note to note, it wasn’t a tabula rasa like a Boehm-system flute. The flute’s own “personality” is imposed on the music – there’s no master-slave relationship between the player and the instrument; the flute asserts itself and the player has to accommodate the flute.

Imagine how boring the uilleann pipes would sound if every note had the same tonal quality. One of the things that makes the pipes great is that individual notes are immediately recognizeable: the bottom D, the E (especially the second-octave e), the C natural, and the back D in particular stand out and have very distinctive tonal qualities, different from any other notes on the chanter. A good piper can listen to the pipes being played and recognize each note for what it is, just based on its sound.

For info on the tuning idiosyncracies of the old English flutes, see http://www.oldflutes.com/english.htm

The key passage there is: “The large-holed English flutes can be very difficult to handle. Intonation is weird. The low d’ is often very flat, while the a’ and b’ are sharp. The e’‘’ and e’''b can be flat. Often bore shrinkage exacerbates the problems, but these symptoms seem to be part of the design. The correct method of blowing can help. They seem to require a tight embouchure with the lips above but close to the outer edge, and like to be played “on the edge”, where notes, especially the lower octave notes, are about to overblow into higher harmonics. Then the tuning seems better, and the tone is wonderfully rich. No other type of flute can sound like this. But to keep this up for long takes a lot of strength. Nicholson could do it, but some of the rest of us have trouble. I do not feel that I play my best on this style of flute, but after demonstrations that include numerous flutes, many listeners will recall and comment favorably on the memorable and distictive sound of the Nicholson flute.”

Second this. Playing flute seems to me a lot like singing. You have to make the note sound in tune, if you just sing without listening carefully to the sound you’ll be all over the place. Listening to your sound, and making sure it’s in tune, is crucial.

Seconding much of the above… Finding the correct embouchure approach is certainly part of the issue You can’t flatten any notes by venting keys in a way comparable to sharpening the flat F# with the F and Eb keys, the flat open C# with the C key, etc. The embouchure technique is rather different from traverso, as i’ve relatively recently found myself, going in the opposite direction. Moving the flute head further down your chin and getting the back edge of the hole a little below the edge of your lip, more so than for modern Böhm flute, should help, though you’ll have to adapt your air-stream angle too! But don’t cover more than about 1/3rd of the hole with the lip - don’t roll in as well as move down!

Setting the stopper correctly (for accurate octaves) does matter, of course, and if it’s set wrong for your tuning slide extension to get your target reference pitch and for your blowing style, it won’t be helping. But adjusting it cannot pull a single off-tuned note in with the scale.

All that dealt with, you’ll likely still find those As sharp. Lipping the 2nd 8ve one down shouldn’t be a problem, but the fundamental often is. They were probably partly done that way to facilitate voicing the 3rd 8ve, though don’t ask me which 3rd 8ve notes the A hole affects… One non-permanent and non-damaging way to improve the sharp A is to use some pure beeswax to reduce the size of the tone-hole by applying it to the up-tube wall of the hole and sculpting it until it is tuned better to your satisfaction.

Thanks for your replies, guys!! I think I’ll go with the beeswax in the end, but before I would try different angles. As you said, Jem, the traverso is different; totally agree with that but what I meant was that on these flutes you need to “find” every note in differen places. The modern flute just stays there except for the obvious changes on every octave. I’ve been trying covering 1/3 and flattening my lips in a way that it seems all the notes blend together quite better. So… I’ll keep trying and then use the wax.

The best solution long term for the sharp A is to learn to raise your head slightly and roll the flute towards you slightly to flatten the note, as Brad notes above. Practice it for a while, and soon you’ll do it automatically without alot of conscious thought. Ornamentation, where appropriate, can also help, such as sliding up to A from G, or finger vibrato using F# and E.