We used to play Winnie Hayes’ but less ironed out than the version above. Micho ofcourse played the higher version, ending on A but was overall along the same lines as ourselves. The Hole in the Boat is along similar lines, one of the many jig adaptions of Anachuin
Nice video clip, Peter. Thanks for posting it. I’m not sure what you mean by “less ironed out” though. The only real differences I can see/hear are that in bar 2 and 6 of the A music you have FEE E3 rather than FED E3 and that you do a step-wise pattern in bar 5 of the B music - geg fdf - which is a variation I sometimes use, though it’s obviously part of your basic setting. Otherwise the bones (i.e. without ornamentation & variation) are pretty much the same. Can you explain what you meant? Perhaps you were referring to my playing on my clip rather than to the notated version of the tune?
I didn’t hear your clip but the tune has very marked emphasis in the rhythm:
BAF ~E3 FEE EFA BAF ~E3 FDD FGA BAF ~E3 FEE E2 d edB ABd edB A
FA Bcd ~e3 fee e2 d Bcd ~e3 ~f3 d ETC
which your version, well, ignores, plays around or whatever you like to call it, which lessens the impact considerably:
BAF ~E3 | FED E3 | BAF EFG | FEF DFA |BAF ~E3 | FED E3 | edB ABd | edB AFE
I think I understand what you are saying, but I really do not think those miniscule differences in notes played make a significant difference to the rhythmic “impact” of the tune - that surely lies more in the way the player puts in emphases by pushing volume, tweaking timing, lengthening or shortening notes, etc. They catch the ear as differences in the melodic line, certainly (i.e. different from one’s familiar version), but I don’t hear any strong effect in the way you and Kitty play the tune that supports your case. It’s a nicely played version of a fine tune, for sure, but I would say you play very smoothly without any pronounced rhythmic emphases (that’s not any kind of criticism, BTW), and those melodic details fall well within the normal range of variation in versions of tunes that don’t qualify as fundamental differences. Different, yes, “ironed out” - hardly! I think the familiarity issue is the key one here, as your setting with the repeated E’s initially and very subjectively struck me as “weaker”, for what that’s worth! We get so used to the particular way we know a tune that other ways do strike the ear as “wrong” or “inferior”, at least until we acclimatise to them or open our minds, and we naturally tend to prefer our familiar version and think it is “better”. That experience is one that is very familiar to me and over which I often have to pull myself up. Of course, sometimes we come across demonstrably butchered settings of tunes, and a known composer’s original version of a tune is definitive (although not necessarily “best” - I can think of tunes that have been adopted into the tradition and grown, shall we say, in the aural transmission in ways that seem to improve on the original!), but I don’t think either of those situations pertains here. Value judgements rule! 
BTW, I learned this tune the trad way, by ear at sessions, and the transcription I gave is just a reflection of how I have picked it up. In my video clip I play variations that are not in the notation. I make no claims of pedigree for it, nor have I any investment in it beyond liking it very much. What matters with any tune is how you actually put it across by playing it.
Well it’s all in the detail and to most traditional players it’s that sort of detail that counts. But to each their own.
Now that statement I agree with completely - and I do think the differences we’ve been discussing matter - sure they have an effect - the D instead of E in “my” version has a subtly different effect on the ear not just for rhythmic reasons but also as it implies different note relationships (harmonic and scale relationships etc.) and directions in which the melody is moving - as do some of the other subtle discrepancies between our versions. No disagreement there. These differences in effect matter and can be points of choice in interpretation; the more advanced one gets as a player and the deeper and wider one’s experience of the music the more consciously one can play around with that kind of detail and it becomes part of one’s personal style. Sure. Fine. It is then a matter of subjective taste and value judgement as to what one likes/prefers as a player or as a listener, what one thinks “works best”.
Your “ironed out” comment was pejorative; mildly so, and not (I think) meant or taken as offensive. I wanted to understand what you meant and why, and now do so. I can now say I disagree. Subtly different versions with subtly different effects on the ear, yes, but implicitly or actually better or worse than each other, no. I don’t think yours is weaker, just different, and that difference is interesting, offers a variation I hadn’t come across/thought of before, so I’m the richer for that.
It’s the same sort of discussion as as the ending of jigs. The old players here would never play BGF G but always go BGG G and be quite particular about it. I have heard BGF G referred to as ‘vulgar’.
Also think of the implication for dancers of the different configurations.
It’s 6/8. Dubada dubada, whatever notes you put to the rhythm.
Careful, Jem…
Could you please elaborate on this? Do I understand you right that this is a rule of thumb for ending jigs in general, not just the one being discussed? If so, good thing I’m getting off work soon, so I can go home and double-check my jig endings!
Is BGF G ‘vulgar’ because it’s too tidy? You mention this being an issue for old players…are tastes changing? And would BGF G be OK leading into a repeat? Sorry, that’s a lot of questions about four notes, but then you did say the details count.
Or as Seamus Ennis said ‘Rolled off, like a good typist typing..’
I don’t think we have the same understanding of jig rhythms, Jem.
Pure speculation … But the F# → G leading tone suggests a standard perfect harmonic cadence V(7) → I. A staple of western art music that has carried over into every bog standard I-IV-V pop tune. So maybe it’s the association with pop music that’s considered vulgar. Trad musos are not immune to occasional reverse snobbery. 
BGG G is less defined, so maybe considered more in keeping with the harmonic ambiguity that gives so much of trad its distinctive flavor.
Huh. Flipping through O’Neill’s, it certainly is full of BGG G sorts of endings. I had no idea.
I’m interested in the “old players” reference. I see O’Neill’s has “The Idle Road” ending the A part with BGG G2D. I recently learned the tune off of Peter Horan’s latest CD, and he’s definitely playing BGF GFE. At 82 years old, he’s not exactly a spring chicken. Is there a regional component to this?
Is there a regional component to this?
I was thinking of (West) Clare players.
BGG G is less defined, so maybe considered more in keeping with the harmonic ambiguity that gives so much of trad its distinctive flavor
I wouldn’t think harmonic considerations and pop tunes would have come in to the thinking of the people I was talking about. A reverence for how the old(er) people had it and rhythmic considerations are more likely candidates.
BGG G is more rhythmically defined than BGF G
Aha, that’s true about the rhythm, a good point. And maybe in the end a bit of all of the above comes into play to some degree.
Slightly flippant wind-ups aside (careful, Rob 
), I doubt that, Peter. However, you obviously have some further insight here that for some reason you prefer archly to allude to as some kind of higher order mystery instead of explaining. In effect, you said the melodic difference has a rhythmic effect that would affect a dancer. Please explain. For starters, what sort of dancing have you in mind?
I’ve played plenty for social dancing - barn dance, ceilidh, call it what you like, and there they sure as hell wouldn’t notice - they usually barely know the difference between a jig and a polka! I’ve never played for proper Irish set dancing and know little about it. I’ve been roped in a couple of times to play for step dancers, and they have just said “play us a …(insert dance form of choice)”, indicated a tempo and got on with it, not minding what tune it was or where that particular tune went melodically or rhythmically, so long as the pulse was right and it had the correct number of bars. (Also, to my mild surprise, they didn’t seem to be bothered about starting on the As of a tune and finishing on the Bs, but would come in after one A and finish whenever their pre-established step pattern ran out… I’d have thought that if they had a 32 bar set of steps they’d want to do them to a whole tune, with an extra A for an intro, or not come in until the start of the second run-through of the tune, or something like that… Maybe I just haven’t met any really good dancers? One of them was a fleadh prize winner, though.) But, obviously, that is a minute experience on which I would seek to build no claims of any kind of understanding, since clearly those were ad hoc, make-do situations.
So, given my acknowledged lack of high level and specifically refined Irish dancing, just how and why would the very subtle difference in interpretation of a melody, with some infinitesimal effect on the rhythmic balance of the tune such as we have been discussing, even be noticed by, let alone somehow upset dancers? Serious question. I want to understand and learn.
Jem between your:
It’s 6/8. Dubada dubada, whatever notes you put to the rhythm
your explanation why your version of Winnie Hayes’ is different but equal to the one I gave and my perception of jigs (or Irish dance music in general) lies a gap that is unbridgeable in the confines of posts to a forum like this.
There’s a world of good (recorded) music out there and some writing on the subject that is better than what I can give here, educate yourself.
I uploaded a little clip of Seamus Ennis talking about things like that (taken from a longer talk) : Munster Buttermilk
Also imagine what the Fahey jig I posted above would sound like rolled off as Dubada dubada and compare it to how it is really played. You’ll find clues there.
Here’s another jig for Jim’s collection:
Eddie Kelly’s:
All this is absolutely fascinating. Thank you guys!!!
“Funny How The Brain Works” Moment – I don’t know “Winnie Hayes’s” (I don’t think I do, anyway, and a cubicle is not the ideal place to find out), but when I saw the dots earlier in the thread, my head sang it as a different-key variant of “Old Tipperary.”
Thanks, Brad.
More jigs, please. The jig monster be hungry!