OT: Moral Problem--advice?

Whistle
1

Davy, my boxing trainer, was ranked
5th among amateur boxers in the USA.
He fought some of the best people,
he won 80% of his professional fights
by KOs. At 34 he’s fat, funny, kind,
and brain damaged to the point
where his speech is slurred.

Davy’s attitude is that he wants
to live for today, cause you
never know, you might die tonight.
Sometimes he misses appointments
because he’s been up all night
gambling at casinos with his
mother. Davy says he doesn’t like
to gamble, particularly; he likes
to spend time with his mother. She
likes to gamble.

Today I sparred with Davy for the
first time. He basically protected
himself–tapping me ocasionally
in the belly. He insisted that
I punch hard. I managed to
hit him in the head six
times over several rounds, and I thought:
What am I doing hitting this
brain damaged guy in the head?

I dropped my gloves and turned
away. Davy chased me and started
hitting me to make me keep
fighting.

Afterwards he said:

Don’t worry about me. I’ve
been boxing since I was 9.
You’re not going to hurt
me.

This would have been more
persuasive if his speech
wasnt slurred.

I said: ‘Let me buy you some
headgear, Davy. You’d look
great in headgear.’

But Davy won’t have anything to
do with headgear–though he
has no problem with our
wearing it. I think he
thinks it’s sissy stuff,
at least in his case.

What do I do? He spars
with lots of people
better than me–it
occurs to me that I’m
part of a process that
may leave Davy unable
to speak in a few years.
Probably I’m not going to
harm him–but probably
doesn’t sound good enough,
especially given the nature
of the harm.

He has the right to live
his life by his own lights,
but when you consider the
potential cost and the fact
that head protection isn’t
burdensome, it doesn’t seem
to me that he’s making a rational
decision. Even if it’s his
right to expose himself to
this harm, I’m not sure that
makes it permissible for me
to risk harming him.

Comments welcome. I’m especially
interested in info about the
actual risks, if any, to Davy. This has
nothing to do with whistles,
but I’ve been writing to you’all
for some time about my experiences
with this guy–please forgive
the digression. Thanks, Jim

2

and now for an even more off topic answer. . .

If you ever played the old pc freeware game Hot Death UNO, there is a comment that fits your situation.

“Hit him again! hit him again!
Harder! Harder!”

On a serious note, things for Davy can get worse. As mostly-retired rugby player with some real memorable (pun intended) head injuries from my playing days (hopefully not again this Saturday when I try to play again), I know that you just heal ‘around’ the injury, not heal from the injury. I think that is why God gave us 80% of our brains as extra and un-used for us to heal around head injuries. I think it works better for single large injuries than thousands of little injuries, like you get from boxing.

Davy may be keeping ‘personal’ dignity by facing his challanges by not changing himself. For you, just don’t throw punches until he wears it. What you do in the ring with Davy is your concern. What Davy does in the ring is his concern. That’s the best you will do. Also, think of it this way. You’re time knocking Davy around could take the place of somebody who could do a better job at it. Food for thought. . .

3

Boy, Jim, that’s a tough place to be.

I have two thoughts:

  1. Am I my brother’s keeper? Do we have the right to dispute the personal decisions of others even though we believe them to be irrational and uninformed? As a society and as individuals we do this all the time. We pass and enforce laws in an attempt to make people do what’s right even if they disagree. Building codes are but one example. We also insist that our children and elderly parents do things they prefer not to do (like wearing clothing suitable to the weather, or eating their vegetables) because we can see consequences they can’t. Should we do that for a friend or acquaintance? I think so. At the very least, we shouldn’t contribute to the consquences of their poor decisionmaking.

  2. Just how well do firing-squad members sleep? Are you comfortable with the statistical unlikelyhood that your gun was firing blanks that day? Your punch may not contribute to you friends injuries, but are you sure enough to make you comfortable?

What are the chances that you could enlist the help of other gear-wearing pugilists to try to change your trainer’s mind? Take up a collection to buy him some top-shelf stuff and personalize it for him. How could he say ‘no’?

Best of luck,

Jeff MacDonald

[ This Message was edited by: JeffMacD on 2002-05-08 16:49 ]

4

Just my opinion, but I’d look for another trainer. If the guy has had his judgement impaired enough that he won’t wear headgear, then what sort of training is he giving you? His past laurels aside, a good trainer at anything will be able to help you by using their own mind to better you. And if that mind is impaired, as evidenced by his speech, then you might not be getting the best training. Also, it could be the one blow that you deliver that renders him disabled. Even if he’s a gambler, are you as much a gambler as him? Eventually his condition will worsen if he keeps up like he is. Could you live with knowing that you may have contributed to that? Like I said before, I’d look for another trainer, and thank this guy for his time.

5

Thanks, fellas,

Raises lots of issues, doesn’t it?

Marks point that someone else will
hit Davy harder if I don’t hit him
reminds me of a fellow I believe
was tried at Nurenburgh–sent
millions of people to their deaths
in the Holocaust. Leaders of
the French resistance came forward
and testified that this guy hated
the Nazis. He did the job because
someone else would do it better.
Every now and then a boxcar of Jews
on its way to Auschwitz dissapeared,
and the people escaped–his doing,
you see. He saved thousands; the
price he paid to save them was that
he helped murder many more.

He was hanged. Food for thought.

I think Jeff’s point that we shouldn’t
contribute to the bad consequences
of someone’s bad decision is well taken.
You know I have this vision of Davy
really disabled at 40, say, and
myself saying: “Well,
he chose to live this way, I’m not
to blame, etc.” It doesn’t add up.

Yes, maybe monogrammed head gear…
Thanks to both of you.

6

Call Dr. Laura, I say.
Just kidding. I don’t think you can do anything to protect him, because if he’s going to do that, he will. But if it comes up again, I’d let him know it’s a bad idea to fight for the sake of having a fight. I believe things like karate and boxing are learned for the sake of defense. If he’s a really good boxer, he’ll save it for the ring where it’s at least professional.

7

Man, thats one tough situation. The others all raise good points. The extent to which you want to be an active part in protecting this trainer/friend of yours is something you’ll have to decide in the depths of your own soul, even though your sparring with him probably doesnt protect him that much, or enough, anyway.

Here is my lamer suggestion: Play chess instead.

The brain damage from playing chess is about equal to boxing, but the physical damage is much less (though sometimes opponents end up bashing each other with metal chairs just like in wrestling, but full contact chess is a rareity).

8

Mmm okay…

I’m uniquely qualified to comment here, based on my having been a professional Martial Arts, Kickboxing (Muay Thai) and Boxing instructor/trainer for many years.

So, here are some facts for you Jim:

  1. Davy is letting you hit him. Anyone who’s reached the level he did as a boxer…No way you’re gonna touch him unless he let’s you. He may have speech and memory problems, he may not be as quick as he was in his prime, but I promise you, his defensive skills are still plenty sharp to keep you from landing a single punch, if that’s what he wanted.

Look at it this way Jim: Magic Johnson hasn’t played professional basketball in a number of years now. Physically there’s no way he could suit up and play with the top pro’s right now without getting his butt whooped - he’s past his prime and has a weakened immune system. However, do you honestly think you could play him one on one and get even a couple of baskets? Fuggedaboudit!

It’s the same with Davy, you’re only hitting him because he allows it. Look, he’s letting you hit him because that’s what a good trainer does: You would rapidly get discouraged if he never let you touch him. He knows this, he wants you to have some success so you’ll be encouraged. Take my advice, enjoy this while you can, because as you get better, he’ll stop letting you hit him, and eventually he’ll start pounding on you, that’s also part of the process.

Here’s some food for thought Jim: Davy let’s you hit him because it’s part of the learning process in Boxing training, but there’s another reason he doesn’t want you to get discouraged (and therefore another reason he let’s you hit him): Davy wants you to keep coming back. Most people will quit if they get to the sparring stage and either A) get beat up all the time, or B) can’t ever land a punch. Davy needs your business to pay the bills - most ex-boxers don’t have many other skills, so they become trainers - What would Davy do for a living if he couldn’t keep enough boxing students coming in to pay the bills?

Now, You may think you’re doing Davy a huge favor by quitting, so you won’t be pounding on him, but the fact is you’ll be making it more difficult for him to put food on the table, something to consider…

  1. You are not hitting Davy that hard, no matter what he tells you. Trainers will say whatever it takes to motivate you. If a boxing trainer thinks you need encouragement, he’ll say “Man, that was a good shot! You really put a hurtin’ on me with that one!” Conversely, if the trainer gets the feeling you’re slacking, you’re gonna hear something along the lines of “Is that all you got creampuff? You couldn’t break an egg with that weak ass left hook of yours.” So don’t believe everything that you hear.

BTW, most people with less than 2-3 years of training under their belts have no idea how weak their punches are. They always feel solid when you hit the heavy bag, but until you’ve been walloped really hard by a good boxer, you won’t have a clue what hard punch truly is. Trust me Jim, the shots you’re landing on Davy feel like like rain drops to him, I kid you not.


3) Boxing headgear is not worn to cusion the blows from punches (it’s virtually useless in that regard) rather, headgear is worn to protect the fighter from glove cuts to the skin, as well as the headbutting that happens in close fighting. Wearing head gear also provides some protection from developing Cauliflower ear as well, but it won’t save Davy many brain cells I’m afraid.

So, while it may make YOU feel better if Davy wears the headgear Jim, it’s not going to make any significant difference to Davy’s brain cells.

Well, that’s about enough typing for me at the moment. Hopefully this gives you the benefit of a different perspective to help you make a decision Jim. I can understand your concerns, however from my point of view as a former trainer, I see things very differently, and IMO you pose about as much risk to Davy in the Ring as you to Hulk Hogan in the wrestling ring :slight_smile:

Loren

\

“The truth knocks on the door, and you say, ‘Go away, I’m looking for the truth,’ and so it goes away. Puzzling.”

–Robert M. Pirsig, “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance”

[ This Message was edited by: Loren on 2002-05-08 19:13 ]

9

Brain damage does happen. No question. But, as Loren said, you are not really pounding Davey that hard. I suspect he’d get more damage in the ring for real in one night than in a couple of months with his students. Real boxers go in there to smash thier opponents.

I used to fight in the SCA - armored combat with big clubs instead of swords. Full speed and full contact. I would sometimes worry about not having my balance in hand for a few hours after a fighter practice. Kind of scary. I don’t fight anymore. But, the guys who got better than me started learning a lot more in the way of defense and all of a sudden, you see them get hit in the head maybe 5 times in a night, max. After a certain point, leg blows are what takes them.

I also wanted to say that I don’t believe in the calim that 80% of the brain isn’t used. I don’t know who started that myth, but there isn’t a neurologist in the world who would agree. Maybe we only use 20% for conscious thought or whatever (even that is something I’d like to see some sources on), but a lot of the brain is used for things like fine-motor control. Do you have to think consciously about every little movement you make? Your brain is still used to do it, but you don’t have to be aware of the processes on a conscious level.

If there is really any credible literature about how we only use 20% of our mental faculties, I’d love to see it. This is one of the biggest falacies I’ve seen large groups of intelligent people fall for in my whole life.

-Patrick

10

That was great, Loren. Just like your whistle reviews. I love wandering down one road and suddenly getting jerked onto another. It’s like a zen koan. Life is so vague and equivocal. My brother, an engineer, once told me he couldn’t stand doing my job (health care) because everything is so ill-defined. I said that’s what I like about it. That’s how I see life.

I heard a guy on the radio who provided relief work in Burundi, or one of those counntries, after the massacres, say they unwittingly catered to the murderers. They went to help in refugee camps that actually hid fleeing killers. Very disillusioning. He said good intentions are not enough. You have to know what’s going on. That ain’t easy, for sure.

Jim, let us know how this all pans out.

11

Thanks again.

For the record, Davy is a great trainer.
I trained with another guy many
years ago and Davy is infinitely better.
He knows an extraordinary amount about
boxing. Pros are training with him.
And he’s safe–at least for his
students.

Yes, I realized an hour or so ago,
talking with his other students,
that Davy was letting me hit him.
He’s giving me openings so I can
take them. Still, I’m hitting him.
He isn’t giving my wife openings
any more and she hits him, being
much more advanced.

I think it’s unlikely
he’s much concerned about money,
cause he’s making lots of it,
cause he has many students. Also
Davy lives for the day. My wife and
I have known Davy for a couple of
years. I like this guy about as much
as I like anybody.

The British Medical Association
says the headgear is useless for
preventing brain damage in boxing. So I
think the point is well taken.
This isn’t the cure. (BMA has called
for a complete ban on boxing,
amateur and professional.)

I can’t imagine I hit Davy very hard
today, or that I can hit as hard
as a pro. Pros are awesome.
But it is not nothing–
if that makes sense. By every indication
it felt like rain to him.
Still I’m concerned, not that I will
cause him pain but that there is the
risk of causing him harm.

The bottom line is whether
the risk is real. If not, no problem.

Also I’m worried that I’m part of
something bigger that may be
harming him. He gets hit a fair
amount–sort of like a work related
repetitive happening that ultimately
may be harmful, cause he’s already
brain damaged.

I think I need to talk to a neurologist.

Thanks to all, and special thanks
to Loren, Jim

12

You’re welcome Jim.

One other thing occurs to me here:

If Davy has lots of boxers training with him, then he’s only in the ring with you because he enjoys it. You see he has plenty of willing boxers, assistant trainers, and/or assitant trainer wannabe’s that would glady spar with you, under his supervision.

Whenever I was too beat up to spar with students (from hard training or fighting - not from sparring with students), I always had several assitants or senior students that would gladly jump in the ring to take my place for the sparring rounds with junior students. I would oversee the sparring very carfully to make sure the stronger fighter wasn’t abusing the weaker fighter, but there were rarely problems.

Likewise, many boxing trainers never spar with their athletes at all, and the ones who do are only in the ring with the gloves on because they want to be. Honestly, it’s great fun to spar with your students, especially when you’re trying to teach them something in that subtle “Okay, let’s see how long it takes Jim to see this giant opening I’m leaving him” sort of way =;^) (By the way, he’s still leaving plenty of openings for your wife, he’s just made it less obvious)

Anyway, I’m not at all trying to sway you one way or another Jim, just thought I’d throw some more food for thought onto the barbie.

Tony,

Glad I was able to provide you with an entertaining plot twist :slight_smile:

Loren

13

On 2002-05-08 19:23, Patrick wrote:
If there is really any credible literature about how we only use 20% of our mental faculties, I’d love to see it.

No proof but here’s a myth page:

http://www.csicop.org/si/9903/ten-percent-myth.html

14

-A person has a moral obligation to refrain from doing something they know will damage another, whether by consent or not. I’m not referring
to an honest bout against a person who will protect themself well. Davy, by description, doesn’t qualify under this guideline. I fear you will regret later on having added to his cumulative disability and will carry this regret with you through life. This can be avoided! I urge you to refrain from sparring with a person whose emotional development sounds stunted and whose intellect, personal judgement and self esteem sounds poor.
Davy sounds as though he has never really reached emotional adulthood, and this means you could be contending with a man whose ability to make good decisions has never developed
properly. You wouldn’t spar with someone with Down’s syndrome, and Davy, though probably in much better mind, should be left alone.
-No training this fellow offers is worth harm to him or future emotional repercussions for you. Yes, others may do worse harm to him, but that doesn’t mean you should hurt him.
Don’t let yourself get beat up either!

Peace.
Brian

15

Well, here’s another possibility. (I like simple.)

IF you are really committed to this, tell your trainer that you won’t hit him hard any more, unless he puts the gear on for you. No discussion - period. Then, pull your headshots until he gives in. If his goal is training - not machismo - he will sooner or later give in. (Grumbling, of course.) If he wants to tell everyone else that you’re a sissy and you forced him to coddle your sensibilities, then let him. The man you describe is certainly not going to let this kind of stuff get in the way of the goal.

It really doesn’t matter what the facts are about brain damage and head gear. What matters is whether this interferes with your training, or your personal principles.

Tell him and stick to your guns. Or get over it and knock his block off. Either way, this is a significant point in your training. The path forks here. :wink:

–
Jeff Gitchel
http://trainorphans.org

[ This Message was edited by: gitchel on 2002-05-09 09:22 ]

16

On 2002-05-08 23:36, brianormond wrote:
-A person has a moral obligation to refrain from doing something they know will damage another, whether by consent or not. I’m not referring
to an honest bout against a person who will protect themself well. Davy, by description, doesn’t qualify under this guideline. I fear you will regret later on having added to his cumulative disability and will carry this regret with you through life. This can be avoided! I urge you to refrain from sparring with a person whose emotional development sounds stunted and whose intellect, personal judgement and self esteem sounds poor.
Davy sounds as though he has never really reached emotional adulthood, and this means you could be contending with a man whose ability to make good decisions has never developed
properly. You wouldn’t spar with someone with Down’s syndrome, and Davy, though probably in much better mind, should be left alone.
-No training this fellow offers is worth harm to him or future emotional repercussions for you. Yes, others may do worse harm to him, but that doesn’t mean you should hurt him.
Don’t let yourself get beat up either!

Peace.
Brian

“I urge you…”
I fear the emotional repercussions of urging someone to do or not do something that may be right for me but wrong for them more than I would fear the emotial repercussions of hitting Davy. Unless you get below a threshold (miles below someone who can run a boxing school and train people at a skill), I believe I have no right to disqualify the decisions of a person whom I conceive to be less intelligent/capable/mature etc than I am.

I think, Jim, the question you should be asking yourself is, why do you box? You can put on headgear and Idunnowhat but any way you slice it you are studying how to hit & hurt people. There may be all sorts of justifications (self-defense etc.). Still, the nature and the meaning of the act of boxing is hurting others. It matters of course that you do it as a sport and that your sparring partner consents but it doesn’t change the nature of the activity. Maybe if you are clear on why you want to box, it will become easier to answer your question about Davy.

Best,

\

/bloomfield

[ This Message was edited by: Bloomfield on 2002-05-09 09:50 ]

17

Damn, Bloomfield beat me to the punch! =;^)

This really is about Jim, not Davy. In reality, Davy kills more brain cells by choice in one night of drinking than Jim could do in the next 3 years of sparring with Davy.

Jim,

You are at a crossroads, on that many come to along this path: Can you deal with hitting people and being hit by people? If you want to learn to box, you will have to accept the fact that you will be inflicting some degree of pain and damage on other WILLING participants in this training. If that simply won’t work for you, then it’s time tomove on and find another form of exercise - no shame at all in that.

I agree with Bloomfield (for a change), determine what your motivations are and go from there. If it’s exercise you seek, there are plenty of alternatives, hell buy a heavy bag or go to a gym that’s got one you can pound on. If on the other hand you’re learning to box for self defense, or because you want to learn more about youself in that way that only this sort of thing can educate and enlighten you, then it doesn’t matter which trainer you go to, or what style of Martial Art you learn - Authentic learning can only happen through authentic training… Draw on your knowledge of Zen Buddhism Jim, it’s appropriate here.

Loren

P.S. Bloomfield, I pity the fool who beats me to the punch! I’m a have my eye on you from now on Suck’uh.

18

You have to be careful, Loren: There is a definite tenderness creeping into your posts. Remember your reputation! :smiley:

19

Bloomfield,
You’re throwing a lit match onto gasoline. If you come away with no eyebrows, don’t say you weren’t warned.
Tony Peace Officer Higgins

20

This is an interesting thread, and one in which I agree with the positions both Bloomfield and Loren have taken.

Here’s my thought on it:

Freedom means that other people get to do things you disapprove of. Davy has the right to climb into the ring if he wants to, so long as he’s willing to accept responsibility for having done so. What Jim has to decide is whether or not he wants to climb in with him, and why.