OT: A POLL How many pagans do we have on this Board?

A very interesting read would be the Carmina Gadelica. This record was compiled by transcribing formulaic prayers and blessings used for specific purposes, and got from the furthest reaches of Scotland before their use died out, if I recall correctly. Now these orations were, in the original work, Christian on the surface, but there is the assertion that their patterns come directly from pre-Christian practices. There are websites devoted to this record, in the English and the Gaelic, and also with plausible alternative “retranslations” into the pagan as well as commentary on what differences would be found between pagan and Christian symbolisms in these prayers, invocations, and blessings.

A must-read for any pagan of the Gaelic persuasion.

  1. Name one large “ethnic” group escaping this definition, whether its Slavic, Uralian, Germanic, Turco-Tatar, whatever–you name it!
  1. And Cornish, and Breton, and Slavic… This as further evidence to (1)

Sorry, Sam. On rereading my last sentence I realise it could have been construed as a rebuke. That wasn’t intended. I pretty much share your view on this stuff—not for me, but who cares so long as they do no serious harm. My final paragraph wasn’t a comment on your post at all.

Well you won’t get an argument from me against either of these claims. I actually agree so strongly with (1) that I think the notion of race, in anything remotely like the sense in which it is commonly used, is completely worthless, for everyday purposes as well as for scientific purposes. If you want to know more about my reasons, buy the book I’m currently writing when it comes out. :stuck_out_tongue: Only joking, of course, but it is a long story.

This pagan-friendly thread gives me a chance to ask something… I’ve been in search of an out-of-print book that I really need for these papers I’m writing, but I can’t seem to find it anywhere. Does anyone have a copy of Earth, Air, Fire, Water: Pre-Christian and Pagan Elements in British Songs, by Robin Skelton and Margaret Blackwood, that they would be willing to part with? ::hopeful smile:: I’m able to pay up to $35 for it-- or if someone doesn’t want to permanently part with it, I would be so grateful if we could work out some kind of loaner thing.

Drop me a PM if you have any leads on it! :slight_smile:

Here’s another relevent link, although not exactly exhaustive:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/ancientireland/religion.html

I am a Unitarian Universalist, and our church has a number of members who consider themselves to be pagan. I don’t think I would necessarily consider myself to be a pagan according to their system, although some of the attitudes toward the earth and toward being are quite appealing. I think I’m a pago-hindu-buddhi-judeo-christian-humanist!!

:boggle:

Robin

I feel pagan, and iconoclastic enough. I don’t “belong” or conform to group ideologies. Gentile, pagan, heathan, even blacksheep, outcast, outsider, heretic…they all sound good to me. I say that, because I always enjoy an opportunity to tear down a wall that some religionist has manufactured.

The key is to know the landscape better that they know it themselves.

I can imagine a time, long before Caesar came to Scotland, or before St. Patrick drove the snakes out of Ireland, when the wild trees, the weather, wild animals, wild forests, wild fungus, and a wild imaginations were all a humanly enjoyable and satisfying way of life. I think that intellectualizing the spirit had a taming effect on the human heart.

Today, I think pagans are those who know the wilder person within, and compare it with all the intellectualized religious brainwashing they see all around, and choose to restore and preserve the more natural aspect of their life. They can be a little mischievious though, so beware.

I read a story once about the early christians who came into Ireland and replaced the heathan holidays with their own, built their own fine holy structures, and cut down the huge old oak trees the Druids use to revere. But the battle was not won so easily…

At night, when the christians had all gone to bed, the leprachauns would sneak out from their hiding places and party, playing pool on the huge flat stumps that were left, and doing circle dances around meadows…and that’s where the “Fairy Ring” is said to have come from (“fairy rings” being those mushrooms that grow in circles in your lawn). I believe. :smiley:

Pagan, in general use, refers to any non-Abrahamic faith tradition. But most of those identifying themselves with the label pagan seem to be of Gardnerian influence, to greater or lesser degree.

…influence, to greater or lesser degree.

That’s the key phrase to my way of thinking. Whatever you profess to be, how much does it influence how you behave? I saw a bumper sticker that says “My religion is kindness…Dalai Lama” That’s supposedly the essence of Christianity, but some people would convince you otherwise. (There’s no question kindness is advocated in the Bible.) I’d way rather hang out with a kind heretic than a mean Christian. (Don’t mean to pick on Christians. It’s hard to pick on pagans when you’re not sure what they are supposed to do.) Anyway, I haven’t seen any group that appears totally sincere besides Rastafarians. The real benefit I see for religious beliefs is they do temper some peoples’ wildness. Maybe make them think twice. Create some social order- might not be the best, but better than none. It’s scary when it becomes justification for unkind behaviors. I do like that line by Shakespeare about the world being bigger than all your philosophies.
Tony

There are many, many dark Welsh men and women. ?

Well I am half Welsh, live in Wales and I haven’t seen any.

I think that quote was me Cariad. I meant that there are many Welsh people with dark (even black) hair who are swarthy enough to tan well. I’ve mistaken people who are part Indian for Welsh and I’ve visited Wales and lived in England for 7 years. If you want an example of the kind of appearance I was talking about: Tom Jones. But if you want an example of someone even darker still, wasn’t Shirley Bassey Welsh? :stuck_out_tongue:

Write me up for one…
(just hoping this takes no longer than getting a black-order backwood O’Riordan, or vice-versa)

[quote="Wombat.[/quote]

I think that quote was me Cariad. I meant that there are many Welsh people with dark (even black) hair who are swarthy enough to tan well. I’ve mistaken people who are part Indian for Welsh and I’ve visited Wales and lived in England for 7 years. If you want an example of the kind of appearance I was talking about: Tom Jones. But if you want an example of someone even darker still, wasn’t Shirley Bassey Welsh? :stuck_out_tongue:[/quote]

Well… there are a lot of people with very dark and black hair but they often have very fair skin with rosy cheeks. There was a lot of immigration to places like Tiger Bay in Cardiff by darker skinned peoples which is why Shirley Bassey looks like she does. There were also a lot of Italian immigrants to Wales around the time of the 2nd World War - which is why we had cappuchinos before London ever knew they existed! I haven’t noticed the swarthiness you mention myself as a particular feature. :slight_smile:
Cariad

I think that most modern scholarship believes the Picts to be pre-Celts, and I’m surprised that you found something that called them “unequivocally” Celts . . . particularly when we’re talking about an ethnic group defined by language (the Celts), if there is “no trace” of the Pictish language . . .

What DOES exist is references to the Picts from early Roman writings, which make a distinction between the Picts and their contemporary Celtic neighbors. They made a disctintion between the Gaelic-speaking Scots, the Irish, and the Picts. That could just mean that they were some other branch of Celtic tribe, but old Irish stories also tend to call them the “natives” who were driven into the far north of Scotland when the Gaels moved into Britain.

So . . . I doubt I’d call them Celts. Just call them Picts. :wink:

Stuart

I call myself Pagan, not because I pretend to know everything about the Celtic and pre-celtic culture and religion, but because what we do know and what is now embraced by people who call themselves “pagan” is what matches my own beliefs the closest among all the religions I’ve looked at.

To be honest, this may not be the best reason for naming yourself something, but I also chose paganism because when people ask what my religion is, I didn’t want to have to keep going, “Well I dunno, but here are all my beliefs…” Paganism’s ideas are what I feel most connected to. Then again, I can pull something I agree with from almost every religion. Maybe I should just be a “Myselfist”. :slight_smile:

I just dug up another source, T.G.E. Powell’s classic text, ‘The Celts’. No group called themselves Picts and he isn’t sure that the group called Picts by the Romans was the same as that which formed the Pictish nation several centuries later. Whatever, he’s quite clear that all groups called Picts were celtic. Since his field was prehistoric archaeology, his evidence would have been material culture, so the absence of traces of the language would not have been a handicap in making the identification.

I think most scholars believe Britain to have been colonised by celts. One would expect the pre-celtic population to have been absorbed, or, more accurately, the incomers to have been absorbed. Even if the Picts were genetically distinct from the celtic invaders, if they adopted their material culture they would qualify as Celts on that ground alone.

The Gaels didn’t colonise Britain until after the Romans left. The Picts seem to have vanished before the colonisation was significant. Early Gaelic speaking Scots were not colonists but raiders from Ireland. British celtic tribes were from another branch of the celtic family tree to Gaels so their languages would not have been readily intelligible.

That all could be, Wombat. The only references I know of them are ones from contemporary Roman writings and from (later) Irish writings, which indicate that the Picts were not Celts but rather predated them.

I also think that there might be some information from Pictish graves that does make them genetically distinct from Indo-European peoples, meaning that their data is more like Basque or Finno-Hungarian stuff than it is like Celts, who are most assuredly Indo-Europeans.

I feel like there has been a long tradition of calling the Picts Celtic that has little to do with fact other than that they seem to have influenced the later Celtic peoples; I could be wrong. I remember there having been a very small uproar after Braveheart came out, since some were saying that there was no evidence that any Celtic peoples ever painted themselves blue like the Picts did.

But who knows! Doesn’t really matter a heck of a lot, I don’t think. They probably were assimilated, in any event!

Stuarrt

There are indications from “king’s lists” that the invading Irish in Scotland coexsisted, peacefully or not, with the Cruithne (Picts) as separate kingdoms for some time; there are royal names listed that are not Gaelic, and are regarded to be Pictish. Intermarriage eventually became so commonplace that eventually a new national identity arose, or so one spin has it. Others maintain that the Cruithne were basically oppressed and Gaelicised out of cultural existence.

I take mythology seriously (a la Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell), but I don’t practice any particular religion.

We just watched a movie in my Greek & Roman Mythology class that was an interview with Joseph Campbell. He was talking about the hero cycles that are central to all mythology. He had some really cool stuff to say, which got me interested in his books… which book of his would you recommend the most?