Need Advice - What to Tell the Whistle Maker

Whistle
1

Hi There -
I sure could use a little help with something that I’ve got started. I have recently contacted a few whistle makers with a request to build a Low ‘E’ whistle in A=432 (Verdi) tuning. One maker, Ronaldo Reyburn, replied with the following -
“I can make you a Low E in A=432. However, I’ve never heard of Verdi tuning. If you can tell me the shift in cents from either standard ‘Equal Temperament’ or ‘Just Temperament’ I can work it out. I’ll need the shift for each key.”

I’m not sure what to tell him. I just play the instruments! I don’t know much more about them.

The reason that I want a whistle in the ‘Verdi’ tuning is because all of my Native American Flutes are in that tuning. My Omega Strings Bowed Psaltry, two Juan Acha Quenas’ are Verdi also, and I just prefer it to the ‘standard’ A-440 tuning. I’ve also placed an order, last September, with Mitch Smith of OZ Whistles for a Verdi tuned whistle in the key of ‘B’ Nat.

Sooo, would anyone have some advice concerning how to respond to Mr. Reyburn, so that he can begin making this whistle?

Thanks much,
Ron

2

Sure, and leaving aside for now the lunatic fringe aspect of Larouche and the Schiller Institute …

My understanding is that so-called Verdi tuning means simply using a pitch standard of A4=432. It’s around 32 cents flat of A440, or 40 cents flat of A442. Actually, 32 cents flat is within the normal tuning range of some tunable A440 whistles, which can still be blown into tune at that pitch. So if you’re just asking for a slightly flat whistle, so far so good.

As for intonation … Most whistles are intonated in either 12 Tone Equal Temperament (12TET) or a version of Just Intonation (JI). If you’re satisfied with whatever your whistle maker offers, you’re all set. Honestly, if you don’t understand intonation in the first place, you may be satisfied with what you get. The maker will just scale his usual layout to A432.

Descriptions of Verdi tuning seem ambiguous about intonation. But ideally, it presumably calls for a pure Pythagorean intonation, since the relationship between Scientific Pitch C256 and Verdi A432 is one of pure Pythagorean fifths at a 3:2 ratio. That is, 432 = 256 * ((1.51.51.5)/2).

In practical terms, this means that you and/or the maker need to decide what to do about the Pythagorean comma. There are various schemes for handling this - for example, the one toward to bottom of this page:

http://environmentaide.org/?tag=verdi

You also need to decide which pitch to use as your Pythagorean starting point - A, or your bell tone E. Given a set of pitches in Hz, a willing maker can then set about laying out the whistle accordingly. In fact, if I were you, I’d contact the makers of your other wind instruments and find out what scheme they’re using for their Verdi tuning, then have your whistle maker do the same.

Honestly, I think any more than this depends on why you’re interested in Verdi tuning in the first place. If you just like the idea (or sound) of a slightly lower pitch, and don’t mind not playing with others, that’s OK I guess. If OTOH you’re polemically or numerologically motivated, then all bets are off. Especially if you’re not quite sure what you’re asking for or why.

But good luck in your whistle quest. :slight_smile:

3

Hey MTGuru -
Thanks for the info. I was about to take your advice and contact the NAF maker and ask him if he would E-mail me the ‘Verdi tuning scheme’ that he uses for his flutes, when I received an E-mail from Ronaldo Reyburn. He said " I just read your post on the C & F board", and that he can build the whistle, “no problem”.

So, I will be placing an order for this whistle today!

Thanks again for your help.
Ron

4

Ah g’wan…

5

Can someone please tell me how Godwin’s Law takes effect in regard to Verdi/ISO tuning and its discussions? :confused:

6

Yep … According to Verdi tuning polemicists, Joseph Goebbels was solely responsible for imposing A440 on the world as part of an evil Nazi scheme to destroy the harmony of the spheres, or something.

Here’s a typical Verdi-ite comment from the Intertubes:

Apparently Hitler played music using 440Hz which was also a change made by the Roman Church around the time they interpreted the Bible. Before that 432Hz was the tone used, going way back in history. There is the fact that 440Hz does not work properly in music, but 432Hz allows music to flow.

I’ll have to listen again to my copy of “Hitler spielt die Schläger” to check this. But I have no doubt that music flowed much better before Catholics started interpreting the Bible.

7

Well the lower tuning does sound rather good.
If I had a choice I would rather use it. I trust my ears in this matter.
Never mind the polemics and politics surrounding this tuning to middle C = 256Hz,
even though the simplicity of all C notes as powers of 2 speak to my math-loving part of the brain.

And that our modern world (us people) is going pretty crazy and out of tune (with nature) is a fact easily observed. I won’t blame modern A=440Hz tuning, but it may be a symptom.

8

Sure, there’s nothing wrong with preferring a lower pitch. The thing I wonder is: could you really tell the difference? And I don’t mean you specifically, Hans, but anyone.

Assuming you don’t have perfect pitch, and you have no other reference at hand or in mind … If I ran into you on the street, pulled out my whistle and began to play, could you tell me: “Oh, you’re playing Verdi pitch A432, 30 cents flat” or “Oh, you’re playing the old French diapason normal A435, 20 cents flat.” I doubt it. Those differences are quite small and within normal tuning range. Conversely, if I play my whistle and claim it’s tuned to Verdi pitch, could you tell me it’s not (if it’s not)?

I suppose that any physiological or neurological effects of a particular pitch standard could be empirically testable. But I think that, for one example, intonation scheme is likely to have a far stronger effect on most people’s perception of consonance and tonal coloring than a few cents of absolute pitch difference.

Honestly, I don’t think I could answer my own questions above in the affirmative. Still, I’d challenge anyone to try to convince me that my own deep response to music is insufficiently cosmic or spiritually defective if I decline to drink the Verdi pitch Kool-Aid. :wink:

9

You may well be right on all the points you make, and I simple like it a bit lower, and a bit slower :slight_smile:
And that is a totally subjective judgement.

Still, one could argue for a return to a lower pitch standard, at least for classical music which involves singing, on the grounds that pitch has been raised to such a degree, that it affects singer’s performance of material written at a time of lower pitch standards. I think that is one of the arguments put forward by the Schiller Institute. Is it true?

10

…that’s one way of putting it… :laughing:

11

Pitch has varied a lot between different times and places. One common Renaissance pitch was A=460 (as used by a lot of recorder makers). French Baroque pitch went as low as A=390.

12

Uhhh…no. I’m a singer, first tenor to be exact. The difference between even 432hz and 440hz is so slight as to have virtually no effect. Without an instrument to measure against, I can’t tell the difference between the two when singing pieces written in the lower standard. In fact, those who claim to have “perfect pitch” will often be off by 15 cents from an actual pitch. Key is much more important than pitch for singers. I can vocally hit the high C, aka one octave above middle C on a piano and considered technical perfection for an operatic tenor (which I’m certainly not!), but there are notes below it which are troublesome, more because of the interval than anything else.

I agree entirely with MTguru on this issue.

BTW, LaRouche is/was a nut job. The Schiller institute never proved anything while tenors and sopranos everywhere seem to thrive. I don’t hear them complaining about this.

And Godwin’s rule in this case doesn’t apply since the discussion was a about something Hitler actually may or may not have done. Godwin’s rule is defined by Wikipedia. “Godwin’s law applies especially to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one’s opponent) with Nazis.” In other words it is used to end the debate.

Thanks for the lively discussion,
ecohawk