Need a flute suggestion, very specific criteria.

Irish Flute
1

Hey C&F flute players! I know the “WHAT FLUTE FOR ME?” thread is really annoying, but I have a specific set of criteria that I want to meet with my next purchase. I need to see if there’s an option that fits these criteria, or I need to reality-check myself and rethink things.

I’ve been playing irish flute and whistle since my early teens and I’m 27 now. I’ve played sessions, know a vast variety of tunes, and had I a reasonable instrument, I’d be playing at least a session a week and practicing heavily. I’m not a novice, but I’m stuck with really low-quality instruments. I had a Dixon PVC flute that I bought while traveling so I could play sessions. Sadly, it broke. It’s fixable, but I wasn’t to enamored with it to begin with. I am currently stuck playing an Olwell bamboo flute, which has enormous holes and a massively wide bore.

This presents two problems for me; my right hand has been broken at least once, and i’ve lost a lot of my finger tip precision. big holes make it really hard for me to play despite having above-average-sized hands. I want something with the smallest possible holes, but distance between each hole doesn’t matter since I still have a very wide span.

second, in addition to a busted right hand, I can’t really breathe well thru my nose because the septum is seriously crooked. since the bore on the Olwell bamboo is so large, it takes a massive amount of air to fill. I’m looking for something that takes -very- little air to fill.


I’m a damned mess, as you can clearly see. these two physical limits are dramatically limiting my ability to play, and the instrument i play is exacerbating both of these problems. I’ve played expensive, top tier flutes, and the difference is night and day.

While there are long-term solutions to both of these problems, they don’t stand to be resolved any time soon and I want to get back to sessioning ASAP. The third problem is that I’m an entrepreneur on a very tight budget. getting a better flute is a priority for me, but the money to get a $1000+ flute just isn’t there or forthcoming. if I had my way, I’d buy the best damn flute money can buy.

I’m not picky about the material, whether it’s a sweet and rich tone or a dark and reedy tone, or anything else. I’m only concerned with my own ability to implement proper technique within my physical limits (until i can have corrective surgery to fix both issues if possible; see “broke entrepreneur”). given all of this, what am I to do?

this is not meant to be my “forever” flute. this is the flute that I’m going to play until I can afford a really fantastic instrument. What I want may not be possible, it may not exist, and i may have to compromise. I’d say that my upper limit is around $300, which is pitiful for a quality instrument, I am aware. it would be helpful to know what I could get at each “price tier”: $100, $300, $500, etc.

Thanks for reading this short novel. It sucks that I can’t afford to buy a professional level instrument right now, or to get my medical issues sorted out, but it is what it is. I just want to play, and I know I’m being limited by my instrument.

2

Why are you trying to breathe through your nose while playing?

3

What part of the world are you located?

4

Well it’s hard to put oneself in someone else’s shoes, but if I were in your position I would make corrective surgery my first priority. I’d play the whistle at sessions and save what money I could until I could get my septum sorted out. Then order a small holed Olwell “Rudall” model flute. Olwell’s timber flutes are easy to fill and have a big sound. Why do you use the finger tips on your right hand? Have you tried using the finger pads of the first joints instead? All the best

5

A few thoughts: your Olwell bamboo flute is worth around $300-$400, based on ebay & C&F sales in recent years, so that could finance a new flute for you (or get you partway there).

The smallest-holed ‘Irish’ flute I’m aware of is McGee’s Grey Larsen Preferred model. John Gallagher makes a small-holed Rudall copy, as does Rod Cameron (and Olwell, like Steampacket mentioned). And Casey Burns is known for making ergonomically sensitive instruments. (His Folk Flute might be an option for you at a low cost. I’m not aware of anything else with small-ish holes below about $1000.)

By the way, Peter’s question is right–you should be inhaling through your mouth while playing (it takes longer to take a big, quick breath through the nose, regardless of the condition of your septum).

6

I think that the Dixon conical-bore polymer flute at $195 is a good choice. It has small finger holes. I’ll take that old clunky Olwell bamboo flute off yours hands so you won’t have to struggle with it.

7

Question: How small are the holes on P. Olwell’s Rudall?
How do they compare to the holes on what would be considered a small-holed Rudall?

8

Another option for a small holed, relatively small bore (and therefore efficient) flute would be to look at antiques. The market there still seems a bit soft, though there have been some anomalies. Given your price range I would consider either a French flute or, possibly, a Hall & Sons or Firth Hall and Pond (similar to those that Terry based his GLP on). The toneholes on my Hall and Sons flute are actually smaller than those on a high D whistle. Might not have quite the projection of a Hammy Pratten, but there is plenty of volume for me. One recently sold on e-bay for around $500 with relatively minor restoration needed. If you are handy this can be done at home with basic tools. I won’t pretend that the midrange antiques are the match for modern maker’s products as far as being optimized for ITM, but you get a lot for your initial investment (including keys, bragging rights for playing a period instrument and the correlated bonus of “bringing an instrument back from the dead”).

Some of the polymer flutes might also work for you. I think someone already mentioned the Dixon conical 3-piece (by reports much better to play and fill than the cylindrical 2-piece Dixon). Other economical options worthy of consideration are: Gary Somers small bore Rudall and M&E Rudall. If you can sell your Olwell Bamboo for around $300 and put it towards a new instrument, all of these options should be within your budget. I’ve also heard rumors that WD Sweet will be coming out with an inexpensive polymer conical flute that might be just what you are looking for.

Keep an eye on the used instrument portion of this forum. You could post to trade your Olwell for a flute that might work better for you. Someone recently sold an early Somers flute there for ~$125 (it was a Pratten, so maybe not your bag, but as a conical flute I’ll bet it would work better for you than your current bamboo), and I’ve seen used Dixon 3-piece flutes go for around the same price. In fact there is currently someone selling a M&E for $325: https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/fs-m-e-polymer-d/78864/1 You might also want to contact Jon C directly and see if he has anything in his flute restoration “bin” that would work for you. I wouldn’t be surprised if he couldn’t whip up a restored Nach Meyer that perhaps isn’t cosmetically wonderful, but would serve the purpose.

Good luck with your search.

9

There is a current ebay auction for the Dixon 3-piece conical flute with a starting bid at $140 + $10 shipping. ebay ad

10

Check out Terry McGee’s Grey Larsen Preferred, especially with the rounded rectangle embouchure hole. Small-holed, small-bored, less work but still a a good sound. A lot of people I’ve run into have bought these keyless to get going then sold them to get a keyed flute (often one of Terry’s) so you may be able to find one second hand at quite a discount, but definitely more than $300. Yes, I play a 6-key McGee Larsen Preferred w rounded rectangle, in part for the reasons sighted, and have been very happy with it.

11

I had a badly blocked nose for the first 27 years of my life (cleft palate surgery) - didn’t affect flute playing at all, I just breathed through my mouth as I always did. Then had an operation for it - took two years before it made any difference, but breathing through my nose didn’t make flute playing one bit easier.

Re the fingertip problem, you could always disregard the preposterous religious taboos around them and get a Boehm. They’re usually better value for money anyway.

12

Thanks for all the replies! In order of questions asked:

Regarding the nose breathing issues…I’m actually not sure. I think its a holdover from singing and voice lessons. I’ll get back to my fundamentals and focus on proper mouth breathing. That could surely help mitigate the nasal problem.

I am located in Chicago, IL.

Corrective surgeries are simply not an option right now, and there are no two ways about it.

I actually use more of a piper’s grip on my right hand in general, but the holes are so wide that combined with my poorly functioning knuckle joints, i still have trouble. The Olwell Bamboo has a beautiful sound, but it just doesn’t fit my physicality well. A smaller holed instrument would mitigate my ill-functioning fingers’ lack of dexterity and make a piper’s grip far easier! I’d also be able to use a fingertip grip if I so desired (been playing around with one, kinda liking it)

I paid like $80 for this Olwell at a random medieval times style faire when I was in college, bought from the man himself in person. I can’t believe it’s worth $300+! It has a small crack that goes about an inch up from the end, doesn’t seem to effect the tone any. It’s been stabilized with glue. I would certainly be willing to use its value towards a new instrument, good to know I have that option. That could also help get me to a better instrument by upping my budget to the $500 range.

I have a preconceived notion that polymer / non-wood flutes are Just Bad. The dixon I have, which I’ll be repairing shortly, was not impressive. It was a 2-piece with a very rudimentary slide - basically just a pair of O Rings and overlapping PVC. It played, but the olwell bamboo unsurprisingly plays better. I’m sure that a more expensive polymer flute would play nicely, but I just have this notion that i “should” get a wooden one.

Antique flutes are appealing because I like stuff with history, but I have a lot of concerns there. Anything requiring special care or restoration is right out, because I have neither the time nor inclination to take on a project. An instrument needs to work out of the box so to say. Aesthetics don’t matter much, so I’d be willing to sacrifice a bit of quality there.

When you say that midrange antique flutes don’t match up with modern makers’ flutes for ITM optimization, what exactly do you mean? I really only play irish stuff anyway, so it would make sense to get an instrument designed specifically for that purpose no?

Thanks again to everyone who’s helped out so far. I think that trading out the bamboo olwell might be the key to solving this conundrum.

13

You could try Doc Jones at The Irish Flute Store and see what you could get as a trade in for one of his flutes.

David

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I think I can help you.

First of all, you should breathe through your mouth, not your nose. Breathing through your nose is too noisy and does not pull in enough air. I find I use both nose and mouth, but primaril mouth.

Now to the finger problem. As a Boehm player, I was in the habit of using my fingertips when I began playing open-holed flutes. This worked well until I developed peripheral neuropathy, which is a loss of sensitivity to the fingers and/or feet. I even posted here for suggestions to deal with it. What I have done with tremendous success is to switch to what I call a modified piper’s grip wherein I allow the fingers to lay across the holes where they would naturally fall with no artificial arching of the fingers to encourage a fingertip landing. The result is that my fingers lie more or less flat across the holes, but not as far down the finger as in a true piper’s grip, which is why I call it modified. The trick to mastering this grip is to learn not to worry about feeling the holes. What is needed is to train the fingers to recognize the spacing between the holes so that they naturally fall in the right place. Because your fingers are wider and more fleshy when you use this flat-fingered technique, hole size becomes less of an issue. I have a superb vintage Pratten-style flute with large holes that I dearly love, so I am thrilled to have found a way to continue playing it with little difficulty. I also find this a better way to position the fingers whether or not there is a physical need to do so.

15

When you say that midrange antique flutes don’t match up with modern makers’ flutes for ITM optimization, what exactly do you mean? I really only play irish stuff anyway, so it would make sense to get an instrument designed specifically for that purpose no

The better modern makers have optimized their flute designs for the first two octaves (where the vast majority of ITM sits), while the antiques were expected to play a full three octaves. The latter design necessitates more compromises and thus more “work” on the part of the player to vary embochure or use venting keys to maintain correct pitch. Of course, alternatively, some of us without particularly good pitch sense (and I unfortunately number myself among that group :tomato: ) enjoy the slight pitch variations that a period flute has and believe that these variations can be beneficially incorporated into the music (or we learn to do the extra work…). After all, many of the flute tunes we now enjoy were originally performed on these,at the time, superceded conical wooden flutes. If you can get a restored flute from Jon C it will be good to go “out of the box”, but you would have to check to see if he has one in your price range. He might even trade for your Olwell…

It has a small crack that goes about an inch up from the end

Don’t know for sure, but your Olwell has likely lost some value due to the crack, however small… :cry:

I have a preconceived notion that polymer / non-wood flutes are Just Bad

I think you need to get out and try one of the better polymer flutes. They may not feel quite the same in the hand, but for the most part, especially in a crowded session, I can’t see how anyone would be able to tell the difference in sound. Also, you seem to have a bit of an issue with maintenance and care of your instruments (and possibly yourself… :poke: ), and in that case a more robust, maintenance free Delrin or acetyl flute might be a better choice.

16

And if you did go for a McGee GLP then I would recommend the oval embouchure - takes relatively little air and still gives you a lot of flexibility in tone.

The Folk Flute from Mr Burns is also good IMO and a lot cheaper than the McGee.

I have recently had my nose sorted out (2009 - one side almost completely blocked, probably due to school rugby…) and I could indeed breathe more easily afterwards. When I breathe in now, I breathe in through mouth and nose, though to be honest I didn’t have a real problem before when I was almost exclusively beathing through my mouth. So, I don’t think that should really be your problem - you do need to practice actually opening your mouth to breath in and then getting it back in the flute blowing position quickly once you have finished - but that is just a matter of doing it until it works. (Best way to open your mouth is to drop the jaw a bit when breathing in then raise it again. Dropping the jaw helps open the throat too so it is a good idea anyway. It also affects the lips a lot less than trying to open the mouth using the lips.)

Can’t help you with the fingertip issue, except that you should be using the pads of fingers, not the tips (maybe you are and it is just an issue of terminology?) and Boehm’s are indeed an option. Closed hole Boehm flutes allow very sloppy finger acuracy without complaining about it. However, get a decent flute like an FF or GLP or 3 piece Dixon, or … and try it. Your Olwell bamboo should pay for it.

17

HA! No, my instruments rarely get damaged. I forget how the crack happened, but I blame the process of dormitory living in college. I’ll open my mind to a synthetic material instrument.

With that in mind, assuming i can get $200-$300 for the Olwell (taking account for the minor crack), can I get some guidance on what to look for in synthetics? I could probably throw an extra $100 on top of the Olwell’s value if I needed to.

18

can I get some guidance on what to look for in synthetics

IMHO, any conical flute will have easier fingering than the cylindrical flutes you are acustomed to (Boehm aside). As far as my limited experience with those goes I would say for tonehole diameter the polymer flutes rank generally as follows (I don’t have a size listing handy to check, but I think someone on the board may have been tabulating same at one time):

McGee Delrin GLP (provided he has made some, I know Terry made a couple of delrin flutes, but they are priced the same as his conventional flutes and so out of your range)
Dixon 3-Piece Conical (used price in the $125-$200 range)
M&E Rudall (used price in the $250 - $400 range)
Somers Small Bore Rudall (new price $375, rarely available used as he is a relatively new maker, full slide. Note that he also makes pratten style flutes)
Copely & Boegli (new $360 without rings or formal slide, but with long tennon)
Forbes ($425 new, tennon style slide also)
Seery (~$450 used with full slide)

19

A broken nose and two broken fingers? Is that what happens to you in Chicago when you break session etiquette?

I second the suggestion that you try a non-wood flute. I play an M&E Rudall in ebonite that I bought from Doc and the Irish Flute Store. The holes are small and the tone is good, with a strong low D. It’s a very forgiving flute, and I find I can play more accurately and faster on it than on my more Prattenesque Skip Healy 5-key. I usually prefer the bigger, more open tone of the Healy, but this is a matter of taste rather than quality.

The M&E doesn’t take a lot of air, either. I even find I can play it quietly through two octaves, using a minimal amount of air.

I don’t know if the delrin model sounds as good, as I have not tried it. Ebonite is actually on old material that has been used for instruments since the 1800s. Many people say it sounds close to wood. Doc’s page doesn’t list the ebonite model, but he might have it in stock. I believe he has a good return policy if a flute is not exactly what you are looking for.

20

Yeah, it seems like the M&E Ruddall in some sort of polymer is the way to go. Price is right, holes are small, concial bore (right?). Doc’s only got a Delrin model in stock it seems. Do I really care if it’s delrin or ebonite?

If this Olwell bamboo flute is in fact worth what you guys say it is, I’d be up to trade it out for something as described above. It’ll be sad to let go since it was my first non-Boehm flute, but I’m more concerned about having the right instrument to get better as a player. Is such a trade within the realm of possibility? I could snap some pics of the Olwell, inc. the bit of damage, and maybe you guys could advise me on what’s feasible.

Thanks yet again for all the awesome help. I’m glad C+F exists.