I’ve got a D full set by Adrian Jeffries, and his method of springing keys is by wrapping piano wire around needle nose pliars, trimming it to length and then inserting the pin through the hole made by the pliars. While the spring itself works great and i’m happy with the springiness of the keys, assembling the key, pin, and spring is a real nightmare - especially so for the regs. Sometimes I need to remove the key above the one i’m working on to make room for the operation. There is risk of the spring flying out at your face since it is under stress during the operation and if the pin has a slight bend in it, you may not get it through the block mount on the other side after you’ve successfully fed it through spring hole and key holes.
I bring this up now because after 8 solid years of reg use, I’ve had to replace a couple of broken springs on my most used keys. Patience and being careful has worked to date but should it really be this fiddily?
If I was so inclined to replace my key springs with another system, what would people recommend? I’ve got little exposure to other key springing methods.
I don’t have any experience with regulators, but I have a life of experience with springs on clarinets, bass and contra clarinets, saxophones, etc.
I’m curious to hear if anyone uses any of those methods to spring regulator keys. I’m referring mostly to blue-steel flat springs that are mounted to the underside of the key, and not the woodwind torsion springs or old-school vertical coil springs. Sorry I can’t help directly! I know these flat springs are super-available at tons of sizes and strengths.
My Rogge set has blue spring steel mounted to the keys with a tiny screw. Very reliable. Maybe Mr. Jeffries would have some ideas for you. Have you contacted him?
Flat springs, much like those you describe. are the traditional way of springing uilleann and union pipe keys. The old ones were handmade from brass, and thus fairly thick, but they got the job done. With the exception of the longest regulator keys, they were sprung from the key-touch side - that is to say, the spring was riveted to the end of the key near the point one presses to open the key.
Flat springs are “super available” at tons of sizes, etc., but you may be surprised to find that the commercial ones are not really strong enough for the above application, except for chanter keys - most commercial springs are too light for regulator springs when attached in the above fashion. This problem can be avoided by “reverse springing” the keys - mounting the flat spring in the opposite direction so that the attachment point is towards the front of the key - this geometry requires a lighter spring than the “reverse” geometry. This is what Rogge does, and I daresay most modern makers do this for regulator keys. (I think Geoff Wooff does it the 19th century way).
Three problems arise when reverse-springing the keys. Firstly, this style of spring requires putting a rivet hole or tapped screwhole in the weakest part of the key, or near it (at least for short regulator keys). Secondly, reverse mounted springs usually have to flex quite a bit in order to be effective, often around a relatively sharp bend in the bottom of the regulator key - this can lead to breakage due to metal fatigue. Lastly, for reg keys such as F# and B, a reverse spring must be very short, which aggravates the breakage issue. Oh, and there’s one other minor issue - one must allow clearance for the screw or rivet head, underneath the point of attachment.
I have replaced quite a few broken Rogge blue steel reg keys - his design seems quite prone to this. In fairness, however, since they are attached with screws, the repair is simple and painless.
Bill,
Do you use something stronger when replacing the Rogge springs? Do you have a better design? Mine have worked flawlessly for 6 years. The flat blue steel with a tiny screw is a better option than the wire for easier repair. Anything mechanical is eventually going to wear out. I like the idea of a design that’s friendly to work on. There’s plenty of sets with rubber bands wrapped all over the Regs.
GB
I make it quite simple: I cut a stripe of brass of about 1.2 / 1.5 mm thick and beat it to spring it and make it strong, then file it, sand it and make a hole for the rivet. Fairly handmade but effective.
Best of luck
How much are you playing those regs? I’ve seen them break in less than 1 year, on sets used by heavy regulator players.
I usually use phosphor bronze commercial springs when replacing the springs on Rogge regs. Andreas often uses thin steel strip for this - so far it seems to me that phosphor bronze springs last at least as long in this application, when large flexure is required.
Steel alloys have something called a “fatigue limit”, that is, an amount of flexing which they can endure indefinitely without breaking due to metal fatigue. Beyond that limit, it’s only a matter of time, and the more extreme the bending is, the sooner the metal will fail… so I think the issue with breaking springs is mostly one of geometry. Some of the reverse-sprung keys I’ve seen required the springs to flex over a rather small radius. Bronze and brass alloys don’t have fatigue limits, so sooner or later they will fail, even with small flexures, but because the old-fashioned springing method results in a much smaller flexure, brass springs over 150 years old can still be perfectly good.
Marcelo’s method (above) is the ‘traditional’ one, to the best of my knowledge.
I think its very unfair that a pipemaker should be commenting negatively on another pipemakers work,especially one that is still in business and doesn’t take part on this forum so that he may defend his work.
Is Jefferies system the same as McKenzies? Ian makes his own springs and they seem to work well enough. The pin does not go through the spring as the spring point/seat is to the rear of the key block. I have removed some keys before to revmove “foreign matter” (still don’t know how those cane shaving ever got under the key?) but its not much of an operation.
One of my fellow sessioners has a MacKenzie set (recently added regs). The chanter keys I definately know are are coil sprung (red lancewood chanter). Don’t quote me on the reg keys, but I believe some of them are also coil sprung… Though now I think of it, I have memories of seeing the leaf spring style on older MacKenzie sets as desribed above by BillH and others. Perhaps he has changed his style over the years…
Speaking of coil springs, my first thoughts when I saw a chanter with keys sprung that way was that such small springs would not be strong enough to hold the key in place. I was wrong though as they seemed to work quite well. Longevity of springs seems to be an issue so I wonder how coil springs hold up over time and use?
How much are you playing those regs? I’ve seen them break in less than 1 year, on sets used by heavy regulator players.
I play my regs alot. I don’t hammer on them constantly but they see quite a bit of use. I try to be gentle with them. It took me a couple years to get them balanced out. For the past 3 or 4 years I’d say they get played at least a couple times a week if not daily. I love my Rogge set.
GB
"I think its very unfair that a pipemaker should be commenting negatively on another pipemakers work,especially one that is still in business and doesn’t take part on this forum so that he may defend his work.
RORY"
So where is the negative comment? If something breaks then it needs fixing, and the reason for it breaking needs to be understood - and explaining this to players is a service in itself, not a slight on others’ work.
I have reason to believe that the person who made the keys in question may monitor this forum. No slight was intended, of course - I pointed out that the problem of broken springs is easily solved (provided the customer knows where to obtain suitable springs and is unafraid to fit them). It is however something that can probably be improved, as Mark infers above, once the maker is aware of the possible issue.
I never said my own regulator springs couldn’t stand improving - quite the contrary! At the moment I don’t know of anyone currently using the “forward sprung” method whose springs are as good as the best of the 19th century examples I’ve come across.
This thread has useful, positive information. Bill answered the questions thoroughly and honestly. He has shared information about his personal experience working on the specific problem at hand. Amckay has a very valid reason to need this information. The question was asked for problem solving. We’re pipers. We run into problems. It’s the nature of the beast. We need to learn how to maintain our pipes. If we don’t discuss the pro’s and con’s of design differences, we stop the learning process. I was unaware that some Rogge springs break within a year. I’m grateful for that information. Mine have been reliable. But if one breaks, I’ll be better equipped to keep my beloved Rogge set singing. It’s not a cut to Rogge or Jefferies.
Thanks to you Bill for freely sharing your knowledge. It’s guys like you who help us become better pipers.
Thanks to Rogge and Jefferies for building Pipes.
GB
Although very little, the coil springs have held up fine enough. I think I would have had the regs now about 2 years. I am no Leo Rowesome about the regs, but they do get played 3 times a week at least (should extract didgit to tune and play them more), probably 5 or 6 a week on the lower ‘A’ and ‘G’ chords and there seems to be no loss in “springiness”. Is there a proper term for this?
I also now some people over here in Oz (follow the yellow brick road…) with Wooff sets from the late 70’s and all the keys work just fine.
I struggled with springs on the shortest of block mounted CP regulator keys for a while. There are, however, geometries and methods that can offer decades of good performance in, for instance, the short, narrow springs of a Rowsome style tenor. That slightly troubling issue is neatly and completely dispensed with on Taylor style regulators due to their flat profile and the greater spring width - my old Taylor regulator springs were going strong with nary a hint of fatigue after a hundred years of constant use.
As Mark says, Taylor reg springs were built to industrial strength. The last genuine Taylor set I saw a couple of months ago had springs that sang if you gave them a twang. Plus the greater width and dovetailing ensures that they always seat correctly.
Mike brings up a good point here which I have noticed about my “mouse trap” style springs - they don’t always seat the keys correctly. I find that if the tails of my springs are not centred on the key or regulator, it can skew the key resulting in an imperfect seal and leaks. Fortunately the keys and regs have grooves for the spring tails which help alleviate this.
As G Burman says its simply an analysis of the design, and certainly no criticism of a makers work. (My AJ set is in fine playing order atm).
Maybe Mr. Jeffries would have some ideas for you. Have you contacted him?
No slight was intended, of course - I pointed out that the problem of broken springs is easily solved (provided the customer knows where to obtain suitable springs and is unafraid to fit them). It is however something that can probably be improved, as Mark infers above, once the maker is aware of the possible issue.