Made in America???

Poststructural Pub
1

I’ll apologize in advance for our non-American members for whome this probably is of no interest…

I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. Whenever I go into the grocery store, clothing store, Walmart, etc. I’ve been checking out the labels giving the country of origin for the items I consider purchasing. Everything is made or produced overseas. In fact, I checked the store brand apple juice I bought the other day, and it said “apple concentrate from China”. Even my apple juice is now made in China?!

A few days ago, I saw a Frontline piece on PBS entitled “Is Walmart good for America?” and it was a really disturbing documentary. Which leads me to the question, is there anything we can do to bring production back to American soil? The current trend can’t be good for this country, no matter what the Cato Institute might say about it. I don’t see this as a liberal vs. conservative issue, but more as an elite vs. populist issue. The very wealty are controlling everything, from our consumer purchases to our media, and have constructed an economy which is based on ever increasing consumption. It seems that a house of cards has been constructed. All it takes is for the average American to stop consuming so much (as in purchases), for whatever reason, and the whole thing will collapse. And it won’t just affect us, it will affect the whole world. China’s current economy is largely based on the purchasing power of the American consumer. This is an extremely scary thought.

I have taken to looking at the labels before I buy something and trying to find something that is made or produced in America. For instance, buying Florida oranges vs Chilean grapes in the winter. For clothing, it’s next to impossible, but I do buy second hand clothing for my kids frequently, so at least that’s one less foreign import to be bought. I’ve also joined a local farm co-op so that the food I buy in the summer is produced locally. I looked at some websites which listed where to find American-made fans, sandals, etc., that looked promising, but it’s not clear that the retailers are available in every area.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It seems that nothing will change the current trend unless there is a grassroots movement to stop it.

Robin
(P.S., if people could please refrain from hijacking this into a liberal/conservative rant, I would really appreciate it. I am honestly wondering if anything can be done to save our economy and keep this country from having a backslide in standard of living.)

2

Buy American used to be a big deal, but seems to have gone away as a slogan, as an idea, even as political rhetoric. For that reason, I fear you are fighting a battle that was lost over 20 years ago when it was a big deal during the fight over Japanese auto imports. Even Walmart used to push “made in America,” but changed after they realized that most customers only cared about quality, price and selection, not some little tag. Maybe the idea will come around again, but Americans rarely are motivated to do anything until a problem reaches crisis stage.

Part of the problem is that the jobs are not exciting. I doubt there are many native born American citizens that aspire to work in a factory sewing clothes. There aren’t even that many Americans that would aspire to manage or own such a factory, if they have other options (and they do).

Another problem is the difficulty in determining where certain products are made. I was surprised to learn that an amazingly high percentage of laptop computers are made in China. The HP, Compaq, Dell, Apple and other labels seem to hold out the promise of some American content, but they are mostly a facade of American marketing not manufacturing.

One natural market mechanism is that the other currencies would increase in value, but the Chinese currency is fixed by their totalitarian government. Floating the currency would not solve any problems per se, but it would let the market do its natural work in making long term adjustments.

3

in my humble opinion, you’re doin’ great. maybe gardening. sewing your own clothes. buying secondhand . . .oh, you’re already doing that. farmer’s markets.

please don’t take offense, but we are all on this planet together, and our standard of living in the usa is soooo much higher than some other countrys whose names i probably don’t have to mention, we have a lot we can share and still be living much higher on the hog than they are. we have it so good here. it seems selfish to me to try and hog it all. i don’t want to say or imply you are wrong or anything. i garden and make my own clothes and my own bread and garage sale and all that, too, so i don’t feel bad sending a few pennies india’s or china’s or wherever’s way whenever . . .

4

Yes, drop your standard of living to that of any other pre-industrialized country. That is the only way to bring the prices of American-made goods back to a level that you can actually afford. The buy American stuff was largely union-based, but even they have become so bloated that they have lost their original shape and purpose.

Sorry, not meant to pick on anyone, and the US is certainly not alone in this boat. The point about using Japanese-produced stuff is a good example. Off-shore stuff is cheaper because of the lower standards and costs of living there. When Japan became too expensive, production moved to poorer Korea, then Mexico, then China and India, but the trend is the same. Get cheap goods from poorer countries until they can afford to improve themselves, then their prices rise (just like ours) and we go looking for cheap producers again.

djm

5

I hope that this does not get interpreted has a hijack…

From Bob Dylans 1983 album Infidels,

Union Sundown.

Well, my shoes, they come from Singapore,
My flashlight’s from Taiwan,
My tablecloth’s from Malaysia,
My belt buckle’s from the Amazon.
You know, this shirt I wear comes from the Philippines
And the car I drive is a Chevrolet,
It was put together down in Argentina
By a guy makin’ thirty cents a day.

Well, it’s sundown on the union
And what’s made in the U.S.A.
Sure was a good idea
'Til greed got in the way.

Well, this silk dress is from Hong Kong
And the pearls are from Japan.
Well, the dog collar’s from India
And the flower pot’s from Pakistan.
All the furniture, it says “Made in Brazil”
Where a woman, she slaved for sure
Bringin’ home thirty cents a day to a family of twelve,
You know, that’s a lot of money to her.

Well, it’s sundown on the union
And what’s made in the U.S.A.
Sure was a good idea
'Til greed got in the way.

Well, you know, lots of people complainin’ that there is no work.
I say, “Why you say that for
When nothin’ you got is U.S.-made?”
They don’t make nothin’ here no more,
You know, capitalism is above the law.
It say, “It don’t count 'less it sells.”
When it costs too much to build it at home
You just build it cheaper someplace else.

Well, it’s sundown on the union
And what’s made in the U.S.A.
Sure was a good idea
'Til greed got in the way.

Well, the job that you used to have,
They gave it to somebody down in El Salvador.
The unions are big business, friend,
And they’re goin’ out like a dinosaur.
They used to grow food in Kansas
Now they want to grow it on the moon and eat it raw.
I can see the day coming when even your home garden
Is gonna be against the law.

Well, it’s sundown on the union
And what’s made in the U.S.A.
Sure was a good idea
'Til greed got in the way.

Democracy don’t rule the world,
You’d better get that in your head.
This world is ruled by violence
But I guess that’s better left unsaid.
From Broadway to the Milky Way,
That’s a lot of territory indeed
And a man’s gonna do what he has to do
When he’s got a hungry mouth to feed.

Well, it’s sundown on the union
And what’s made in the U.S.A.
Sure was a good idea
'Til greed got in the way.


Slan,
D. :wink:

6

for better or worse, we are a global economy…

Toyotas are put together in Georgetown Kentucky. Hondas are put together in Marysville Ohio. Chrysler engines have been assembled in Canada for ages. Many GM’s are put together in Mexico. Ivory Soap is made in Cincinnati Ohio in a plant owned by a Canadian company.

While unions had a very important place in American history, they held onto their power too long and wound up pricing their workers out of a job. It’s now “cheaper” to send wood to China, have them make the furniture, then import it BACK to the US instead of having the furniture made in North Carolina.

Environmental laws, again while important, have made it economically “cheaper” to have manufacturing outside of the US.

(I’m not trying to make statements of the good or bad, of these things - I’m just pointing out the realities of what has happened)

I try to buy “local” whenever possible, as you are - produce, etc. But for truly manufactured goods, it’s virtually impossible. And - reality rears it’s ugly head here. I honestly CAN’T afford to for hand made clothing when I can buy 5 t-shirts for 5 bucks! And I don’t purchase trendy stuff, I purchase utilitarian stuff, so I don’t want to have to feel guilty when clothing my kids!

I’ve had some experience recently with how manufacturing is set up in China and Malaysia, and it IS helping their local economy (at least at the onset). It will be interesting to see what happens down the road where our contract manufacturers have been built.

But I don’t think we (any country) will be autonomous anymore. I’m not sure we should be. We have to realize that the days of a high school graduate working at the “plant” for a lifetime is over, and find a way for these people to have some type of sustainable career.

7

[paranoid rant] I think of purchases in the survival mode. So many things are centralized that shouldn’t be. Water, electricity, food production, etc. I do not think that it is a US vs foreign thing, I think of it as a local community vs world community thing. [/paranoid rant]

That being said, buy what you like as long as it is fair. If the store purchases fair trade coffee (Coffee not made locally unless you live in Hawaii) and pays it’s employees well, then who cares? This, too, will strengthen the industrialized world because we will not be seen as leaching off the poor, but helping.

Buying local is good. There is no reason for the power outages that hit the east cost last year that spanned two countries. However Us vs Them is also bad. This is a small rock, and we shouldn’t annoy our neighbors.

The hardest step is thinking about what you buy, something that you have done. Good luck with the answers.

8

For an interesting prespective on this topic check out Thomas Friedman’s
‘The World Is Flat’: The Wealth of Yet More Nations

I haven’t read the book, but have heard him disucss it. His basic premise is that resisting the shifts in the global economy won’t work, rather that developed technological nations need to focus on those things that add value.

Friedman is one of the more insightful liberal thinkers on a number of issues. Two examples - Regarding the global economy, he notes that US auto manufacturers spend $6000 per year per worker on health insurance. Canadian auto manufacturers pay about $800 per year per worker. That tells me that controlling health care costs is the US is a global competitiveness issue.

He wrote a few years ago on issues facing arab countries. He ended up saying they needed to 1) have more democracy 2) change the role of women from 2nd class and 3) simply get more diverse concepts into their educational system. The factoid he used was that in the year (2001 or so) he was discussing, more books were translated from English to Greek than were translated into all the Arab languages.

In the book on the global economy he suggests Middle East countries are long-term losers and that the greatest threat to the US is not Middle East terrorism, but failing to understand how to use our assets to compete successfully in the global economy.

9

Maybe the emphasis should be on fair working conditions globally. I like supporting efforts such as Fair Trade coffee and chocolate, and imports from brokers such as SERRV Internatiional.
This seems to be an effort best carried out by third party organizations rather than governments.

10

I don’t have a problem with imports or otherwise transported goods as long as it makes sense. I tend to look at it from a different point of view than most of those expressed above; I look at it as an environmental problem. The planet just burns up too much fuel moving stuff around for no reason. There was an article in New Scientist a few years ago discussing how much energy is expended moving food around. Three per cent of all the energy burned up in the UK is just moving food around. (That’s the UK, not a particularly large country by US standards.) The UK exports about half of the milk it produces. It imports about half of the milk it consumes. There’s just something wrong with that.

We have a local grocery chain that advertises “Local produce!!” in the growing months around here. I look for local apples in the fall. I generally find about 1-2 batches a year. There’s an active apple-growing industry around here, but even during apple season, most of the apples are from Washington state (2500 miles away), and the rest are from Chile. The second-biggest apple growing state is New York, which is just a few hundred miles away, and I’ve never seen a New York apple in a Maryland grocery store. Can anyone explain the apple thing to me?

I belong to a community farm; I buy at produce stands and the Amish market when it doesn’t require too much effort, but face it, if I have to drive 45 minutes to get to a produce stand, I’m not saving the environment.

11

[quote"Spittin"]The very wealty are controlling everything,[/quote]

That has always been the case. Sometimes it’s more obvious than others, though.

12

In fairness, those costs in Canada are simply in the form of taxes with our healthcare system.

13

Bob Dylan was a Commie you know…


:laughing:

14

I also try to buy American when I can. I also avoid buying things from China. It seems to me that it is important to support local economy as much as possible. I like the idea of supporting local farmers rather than going to my local grocery store and buying from some place a million miles away. The local farmers and whatnot ARE having a difficult time making ends meet,and if I can help them I will.
But I also do buy things such as Fair Trade coffees and teas for I like the idea behind them.
So I suppose I’m saying that for the most part, I understand what you are saying,and I agree.

15

American made products are more expensive than Indian, Chinese, or Brazilian products. That’s why people buy foreign-made everything. I would say that most people don’t have the worldview or the foresight to even care where something is made, as long as it’s as cheap as possible. It’s a sad state we’re in, but it seems to be true.

16

Thank you for all your interesting responses. I stumbled across a website which addresses much of what I talked about in the original post. It would be great if people took a moment to read some of what is in it, as there are some real eye-openers.
http://www.economyincrisis.com/modules/news/
While I don’t agree with everything he said, I found the article by Paul Craig Roberts (Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration) entitled “Economy : When Opposing Voices Do Not Oppose” pretty much directly addresses what I am worried about.

Here is a link to the Frontline show about Walmart. I came away from watching this completely creeped out.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/view/

I guess I don’t really see this as us vs. them in the strict sense. I see this problem as bad for the whole world. When major societies (China, India…) base their wealth and prosperity on the consuming powers of a nation with a crumbling industrial and production sector, a bubble is created that cannot sustain itself. Yes, their standard of living is raised while ours drops. But when ours drops below a certain level, our ability to consume will collapse, and their economies will not be far behind.

Discuss away…(and thanks for keeping it civil!!!)

Robin

17

No doubt that’s part of the answer, but I’d guess expenditure per capita is much lower too. US has, by far, the highest per capita health expenditures in the world, while by most indexes of national health, usually comes in between 15 and 20. (factoid from memory, data quality suspect). In other words, we spend a lot and get less. Not a good deal.

18

Congrats on the 1000th post.

I remember having this conversation many times in the past. One time it was the Japanese. I argued that it was a good deal, the Japanese send us cars, TVs, and other goods and we send them Treasury bills. On the other side, was the question of what happens when the Japanese want their money back and not just IOU’s. Well, as the wheels turned there was never really a time to pay that piper. The Japanese made some foolish real estate investments, their currency fluctuated up and down and twenty some odd years later after the “crisis” point, both countries continue on. If anything the Japanese economy has far more serious problems than the American one.

Another big debate I remember is when H. Ross Perot campaigned against NAFTA (North America Free Trade Association?). The phrase was “a giant sucking sound,” meaning all American jobs would be sucked into Mexico after NAFTA passed. While there was some displacement, it certainly didn’t create the black hole that the alarmists predicted.

So forgive me, if I am skeptical of the articles and the rhetoric. The trade and deficit alarmists have cried wolf too many times and have little credibility even if it is a “new” boy crying wolf today. In my opinion, the other countries are being relatively foolish to send us goods and receive IOUs. American policy makers can unilaterally do things such as devalue the dollar (which it has), or create different levels of assets for foreigners or if things get really bad, there are even more radical steps.

From the replies on this thread, the issue has minimal support in this highly educated crowd, so don’t expect any action. I would expect more alarmist articles and pseudo-documentaries, but again I have heard the cry of wolf before and the wolf did not come.

19

Thanks for the congrats, Bill, I didn’t even realize!

I will refrain from copying and pasting the whole thing here, but please see this link for how serious economic imbalance can lead to a real economic disaster (Causes of the Great Depression). While the current scenario is not identical, we have the same imbalances today, distributed more globally. I hope that this turns out to be “crying wolf”, for all of our sakes.
http://www.gusmorino.com/pag3/greatdepression/

Robin

20

No doubt that’s part of the answer, but I’d guess expenditure per capita is much lower too. US has, by far, the highest per capita health expenditures in the world, while by most indexes of national health, usually comes in between 15 and 20. (factoid from memory, data quality suspect). In other words, we spend a lot and get less.

The US healthcare industry is the least efficient in the world. You spend TWICE the amount per capita & THREE TIMES the amount per insured individual that Canada does, in order to achieve lower life expectancy figures.

It’s wasteful on a massive scale–a scale dwarfed only by your military.