Lip shape and embouchure issues

Irish Flute
1

I know I’ve found an old topic on this in the past, but I can’t seem to hunt it down with the search function.

In a recent post, I was working hard on getting a really good tone. I read through all the old posts on tone, and I finally ended up practicing in the bathroom tonight (what fun - thank goodness the family was out at the time). I noticed my lip is not shaped like most folks in the flute books I’ve seen - I have a V shape in the middle of my lip. When I try to form that nice tight oval, it turns out to be two ovals!

Apart from thinking I might have a career as an embouchure freak in some folk flute playing carnival, I realized that if I pulled back with one side of my face my embouchure and tone improved drammatically, because I suddenly now have just one nice small focused oval. I guess I’ll spend the next few weeks practicing in front of a mirror so I can get the embouchure imbeded in my muscles. I’m wondering:

If anyone else has had similar problems and if they have any advice?

And, any problem with my embouchure being off center like that?

Thanks,

Eric

2

I’ve got a large scar/swollen spot on the right side of my upper lip. This puts my air stream somewhat off-center, and it’s difficult to get a really good focussed stream. I get hardly any sound out with the Irish/smile-shaped embouchure, it has to be round. I haven’t tried the bathroom mirror trick in awhile – thanks for the reminder!

3

I have a jutting lower jaw and larger (to some degree) lower lip. If I place the blow hole directly under the lower lip - as many suggest - it covers a bit too much of the hole and restricts the air flow. I need to raise the flute a bit and put it a tad above the line separating the lower lip from the chin so that, when I play, I need to keep that lower lip flesh pinned down, so to speak. All this also came about by studying in a mirror - often in the bathroom but sometimes in my son’s room when he’s working.

We all have different shaped lips and jaws and do have to keep lookin’ to see what’s going on.

Thanx for the reminder postk, Jayhawk.

BillG

4

The usual descriptions for the embouchure are a generalised ideal from which to start, IMO, and further confused by lack of clarification as to whether Trad or Boehm are being played. I have seen some pretty disparate results, ranging from no apparent special formation, to off-center, to much flexion in the corners of the mouth which in its extreme form can look uncannily Jerry Lewis-like (hey, I’m working on it. Gimme a break.), and all on topnotch players.

As a trad flute player, the usual admonitions of directing the airstream into the barrel at the lowest notes applies in my case, and in general I do this with a sense of directing the air down my chin. However, other people seem not to have to do this. As I reach Cnat, I find the need to direct the airstream more upward with a sense of slightly pushing the lips outwards as if creating a point, and moreso once in the upper register. This can vary from flute to flute, too.

Ultimately -and this is no help at all, sorry- it seems to me that we all just have to play with it until our own optimal approaches are found. Now that I’m just playing the M&E R/R, I’m waiting for a couple of others: soon an Olwell Pratten, in a few months my Williams Pratten w/ a new head and barrel by Pat O., and early next year a Noy R/R. I expect I’ll have to make changes for each. Others have said that it’s a good idea to have more than one in order to fine-tune the embouchure. On the other hand, what’s wrong w/ sticking to one flute (they can really burn your wallet), and perfecting one’s technique on that? :slight_smile:

ramble ramble ramble

Best,
N

5

The important thing is the sound and tone that’s being produced when you play, not what you look like in the mirror. So all the advice about directing the airstream onto the opposing edge, and down the chimney, etc, all apply. What these images in books don’t show is what’s really happening to the airstream with your lips. Assuming your intonation is good and you’re getting a good, strong tone, you’re probably doing things right. The mirror is useful mostly in that a lot of us get lazy and the flute begins to slide off-center; it helps you recenter the flute. But your ears are the best indicator of what’s really happening between you and your flute.
(Playing in the bathroom helps, BTW, because the sound bounces back at you – you can hear immediately if the sound is too airy or weak).
Gordon

6

Thanks all! I’m glad I’m not alone in the unusual embouchure department. :smiley:

I’d avoided playing in the bathroom while staring in the mirror because, well, it sounded a bit bizarre, but it really did help me pin down exactly why some moments my tone was dead on whereas other moments it just wasn’t quite right. I could naturally hear the difference, which usually led me to try and recenter the hole with the middle of my lips when my tone was slipping, but this wouldn’t help. I obviously needed to see what my lips were doing when I was sounding good so I could learn to consistently replicate it (guess who’s a visual learner?).

I showed my wife my new embouchure (a sly looking half grin), and she said I now officially looked demented enough to play ITM on stage somewhere! :stuck_out_tongue: It will take a while to get the embouchure nailed down since it doesn’t feel totally natural, but it ups my volume tremendously and allows me to be able to switch between that dry and reedy sound to a more hard edged sound. It’s also helped me decide that I don’t need to upgrade flutes.

As for the bathroom, it turns out to be a lovely place to play. It has a tile floor and tile walls and the sound is superb. If I could move my computer in there, I’d record a Clip & Snip in honor of the room itself… :laughing:

Eric

7

I think that developing your embouchure is more complex than just trying to get the lips right. The way you hold your flute, the way you sit and stand and the way you hold your head all effect your ability to get a good airflow and a focused embouchure.

I recently started taking Alexander Technique lessons where I’ve learned alot about how the whole body effects your playing. My embouchure has improved dramatically in a short period of time and, very importantly, I understand better why I was having issues. I understand my body better so I know what to work on and I’m not so mystified by the embouchure thing. I would highly recommend some lessons in the Alexander Technique for any flute players, especially if you tend to sit at a desk a lot; that can really mess with your posture, which will effect your embouchure.

8

Hi Jerball, can you perhaps pass on some Alexander Technique embouchure pointers? I’m very interested to hear what you have to say about the whole body affecting the embouchure, not just the lips. As much as I would love to I don’t have access to an Alexander Technique teacher. I’m very curious about this technique and how it brings such drastic improvements to musicians.
Thanks!

9

The thing that I constantly find frustrating is the sheer number of variables that affect the tone. There must be hundreds of different variables associated with the embouchure alone - how far up the lower lip, what shape of hole, how tight the lips, where you direct the airstream…and so it goes on.

As if that’s not bad enough, factor in the overall posture, the angle of the flute, rolling it in or out, breath control…

To me, that’s what makes the flute so difficult to play well. Which variable is the one responsible for great tone - answer - all of them! If I wasn’t bald already I’d be tearing my hair out.

On the plus side, the Prowse with which I’ve been battling over the last week or so, finally gave me a break last night and really started to sing. As I mentioned above, however, I don’t know which variable clicked into place. Is it because I oiled it, or that it’s breaking in again after not being played for a while, or that I’m finding the sweet spot or, perish the thought, I’m actually becoming a better player. :astonished:

Cheers

Graham

10

Even in the non-trad world there is great variation.

One of the best classical flutists of all time was J.P. Rampal. His embouchure was off-center in his lips; he played to one side. In interviews he spoke of this being an “uncorrected mistake,” but it doesn’t seem to have hurt anything about his playing.

And then there’s Hubert Laws.

I’ve heard band directors tell kids with larger lips not to play flute.

Hubert Laws is (was? I don’t know if he’s still with us) a great jazz flutist with huge lips. But he also played flute with just about the largest tonal pallette of any flutist I’ve ever heard.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming. :slight_smile:

–James

11

I agree that no two flute players are going to have the same embouchure because no two people have the same body (Well, with cloning now that might all change :slight_smile:.

But in answer to Eldarion’s question I think there are two major areas to keep in focus in terms of the Alexander Technique.

One is how your head is held on your neck. Most of us have “fixed eyes”. That is, we lock our heads into place on top of our spines, up and back. But if you look at a skeleton our heads should rest up and forward of our spines, giving us free range of the head. When the head is free it also frees up the jaw meaning that we can get a tighter embouchure. One problem I see with a lot of flute players is that their jaw is locked, fixed in place and not hanging down from the head. Their head is at a 45-degree angle toward the ceiling. This will make for a loose, unfocused embouchure. I know this is the major problem I struggle with. This also constricts the air passage and tends to promote upper chest breathing, rather than full, diaphragmatic breathing.

Secondly, think about where your hip is really located. Try a little exercise: stand up, bend over and reach toward the floor. From where do you bend? Most of us bend from our lower backs, or even from our waist. This is because we have a distorted picture of where our legs meet our torso. It’s actually a bit lower. Try the exercise several more times only try bending from lower on your body, as in toward your legs. You should eventually feel like your whole torso and chest are getting longer and expanding. The trick is to replicate this while you’re sitting down and standing up. That’s a big area where actually having a teacher can help you. Having this proper relationship between your legs and torso will help you sit up well and comfortably and it will expand your lung capacity. It will also help out a lot with the back pain that can come from playing flute for long periods.

I’m not an Alexander Technique teacher, but these are the issues I’ve begun to address and I’ve done it all from the perspective of a flute player; I started taking lessons to improve my playing. Some people take lessons as physical therapy because they’ve had accidents, surgery, etc.

Eldarion, I know you don’t have a teacher nearby but it really does help to find someone who can show you the basics. Any time you’re traveling to a major city you can probably find a teacher; you could schedule a mini-workshop for a few hours. It’d be well worth the investment. Also, teachers are known to travel to do workshops, so if there are other musicians in town that could benefit, even a college music department or theatre department, you could possibly tempt a teacher to come do a workshop. The ideal environment is a private teacher that you meet with on a regular basis anywhere from 15 to 30 times. But that’s not feasible for everyone. Some people have accused Alexander Technique of being like a cult because of the insistence of finding a teacher, but you really do need one. Alexander delved into a little linguistic philosophy when he talked about language as being an ineffective technique for communicating a physical discipline. I can tell you to bend from your hips, but your concept of “hips” might be completely different from mine. During a lesson a teacher will guide a lot with his or her hands, actually moving you in the direction you need to go and letting you feel the results. It’s really cool!

It may not work for everyone; a lot of it depends upon how much you’re willing to work. And it doesn’t produce a bunch of weird looking stiffed back clones. On the contrary, it helps you move more naturally.

I know there are Alexander Technique skeptics out there, just as there will be for any school of thought that claims to have figured something out. But I can only speak from my own experience as a trad flute player and from the experience of another trad flute player in town. It has worked wonders.

Check out this page for some more info:
http://www.alexandertechnique.com/

P.S. - it’s not just us amateurs (well, amateurs for now). I have a good friend (I won’t mention his name to protect the innocent, plus I hate name dropping :slight_smile: who’s probably one of the top five names in Irish trad who’s seen the results and learned about the technique and has decided to start lessons himself. Pretty cool.[/code]