I am currently using a Copley flute in the key of D, but it is without the tuning slide and it is keyless. I have decided to upgrade to a Lehart flute in the same key, and this time around I have decided to add a couple of keys to it. What keys I am going to get is not decided yet, except for the Eb which I am certain of.
I do however wonder what keys I can use, as I play with the pipers grip. Will all possible keys be usable if I stick to the pipers grip, or does the pipers grip limit some of them. I know I could ask Lehart about this, but I dont want to bother him about it if there is similar knowledge to be shared here. I have been in contact with him and he said he could make a flute with “pipers grip keys”.
If you are playing with the pipers grip and keys, and you have some info, I would gladly accept it.
There are old threads with advice on this - try searching the forum with the obvious key-words and also for things about Bb keys with alternate touches.
I use piper’s grip and ordered a flute from gilles lehart (it should almost be ready). I asked him to make a longer g# key (the little finger goes out a bit with piper’s grip) and the Bb touch for the right hand. I also asked to make the Eb key perpendicular to its normal position. No need to change the short F key… So 4 keys in total. If you want i can tell you how i find myself with these keys when the flute arrives (hopefully i’ll have it for the end of this month).
Thank you for the info. I actually placed an order today, but I can probably alter my order if I feel the need, since there is a waiting list. I decided to go for a flute with full chromatic possibilities, so I chose a 4 keyed flute (Eb, F, G#, Bb) as well.
You can use a C nat key with piper’s just fine,
and, while the key isn’t necessary to be chromatic,
the C natural key is very nice to have–often
the key most used on a six-keyed flute.
I don’t know if the flute you are getting is
block=mounted, but if it is, you might
want to consider at least getting the block
for a C natural key.
I don’t know if the flute you are getting is
block=mounted, but if it is, you might
want to consider at least getting the block
for a C natural key.
Lehart makes post mounted flutes, so this is not a problem.
There is the possibility that you can actually touch the C key with your fingers if you use piper’s grip… This is my case, although i could probably adapt my grip. For the moment i decided not to bother
the C natural key is very nice to have–often the key most used on a six-keyed flute.
Not that it matters, and the poster may well have more experience than my twenty-odd years of playing, but I only use the C key at the top of the second octave, in such tunes as “Moving Cloud” or Billy McComiskey’s “The Flowers Of Brooklyn.” In fact I use the G# and the short Fn the most. I use the Eb key or the long F key more than the Cn key.
Frankly I know of no fluters who would claim they use the Cn key the most of all the keys. This is the one key I would consider leaving off the flute if cost was a serious consideration.
'My favorite key, by far, is the C natural key. I adore it. ’
JessieK
‘There was a thread on Woodenflute a while back where we all wrote in as to which keys were most commonly used. The use of the C key was a split – some used it predominantly, some not at all. Obviously, since the C natural appears frequently in both trad music and non, those that use the key would use it frequently.’
Just ask Gilles to position the keys for a piper’s grip. He’s done this for several flutes (including the one I’d had) and the results worked just fine for me. I reckon it would be far less trouble for him to sort that out from the get go than to try and do some retrofitting of key positions later, so don’t worry, just ask.
Mr. Stone, it isn’t fair to use part of a person’s quote, especially when the whole runs counter to your point, to support your point:
More from Gordon:
Obviously, since the C natural appears frequently in both trad music and non, those that use the key would use it frequently. Others, like myself, have several ways to hit a decent C and > find the key unnecessary (I also find it clumsy> , with the exception of the B-C transition.) … > I’d go with an Eb and Bb, personally, over a C> …
This latter: “I’d go with an Eb and Bb, personally, over a C.” is exactly the point that I am making.
I think JessieK is primarily a Boehm player rather than an ITM player. Several Boehm players have commented on their affinity for a C key rather than a C hole. Their preference is not relevant to a discussion of the simple system flute as used in ITM. In any case I have no idea if JessieK is to be taken as an authority.
Mr. Bepoq (who is a very good player indeed) simply expressed his preference for a key over a thumb hole. Hardly a comment that supports the contention that a C key is “the key most used on a six-keyed flute.”
My disagreement had to do with your statement: “…often the key most used on a six-keyed flute.” The word “often” in this context is so vague as to be meaningless. You could just as well have said “sometimes” or “occasionally.” I do agree with you when you say “the C natural key is very nice to have.” I would also agree that a pint is nice to have, but hardly essential. Other keys are essential if you wish to play certain tunes and avoid less than perfect cross-fingering, but the C key is not one of them.
Same here. I do use the Cnat key in the first octave for one particular jig, but that is it, and only because of a particular rhythmic/phrasing effect I get for its use. Otherwise, I use it almost not at all aside from that key being sort of the designated second-octave doohickey for me, too; yet even so, at the end of the day I still prefer to crossfinger or half-hole especially if it’s the better choice for my purposes. Intonation is often a big factor, and the keyed Cnat isn’t always the best choice, depending on the tune. Some flutes, like mine, can have as many as four or five subtly different Cnat intonations, which is good, because while I safely discard the extremes, there are the rest, and some sound better than others depending on the tune.
I don’t use keys just because they’re there and I paid for them; it all comes down to what’s best for the tune. And I know I’m definitely not alone on that count.
Thanks, Julia, for including the whole of my post, though I don’t actually remember writing it… … You did get my point (which, happily, I still agree with) - the C nat. key always seemed un-natural to me. That said, a pint non-essential? Hmm…
No, it means this, that for many players,
the C natural key is the key they most commonly use.
Not sure what the insistence is on this statement, but it is certainly not true for the vast majority of Irish trad players that use keys.
Will you be able to find a couple of people that mostly use the C natural key? Maybe. But then these people would not play an extensive repetroire of tunes in keys which invariably require the keys of F nat, Eb, G# and even Bb.
Granted in some cases you can use cross fingerings, but the reality is in many cases you are not able to play these tunes effectively (ie at speed, or volume) without the keys. That’s why the keys were invented in the 1st place!!
The C natural can be helpful in the 2nd otcatve, but it is a rare occasion that this key is required for the purpose of playing a C nat. The same cannot be said for the other keys.
I think I understand you. I agree, of course, that you don’t need the key to play C natural and
more often do need to use the other keys you mention to play the notes you mention.
The reason I say that for many Irish flute players, the C natural key is the one they
most commonly use is this: following Gordon’s report above, a fair number of people
report that they do.
I expect that a number of these people are not
playing a high percentage of tunes that involve the other keys.
Most ITM doesn’t involve them. (That’s why people like Pat Olwell sell
lots of keyless flutes.)
But ITM routinely involves lots of C naturals. And there’s
lots of people who use the C natural key to play a number of the C naturals
they play, that’s what they say: so the key is going to get used more than other keys.
That’s the reasoning.
I just want to emphasize that the claim that ‘for many players,
the C natural key is the key they most commonly use’ is consistent
with this NOT being the case for many players.
Let me try say this clearly:
The fact is that, over the years, many people have written to this board
that they use the C natural key a fair amount in playing C natural,
though often they cross-finger too–that’s a common report. And there are lots
more C naturals than F nats, Ebs, G#s and even Bbs, which don’t
happen in most tunes most of the people on this board play.
So many people are using the C natural key more often
than they use other keys.
A few years ago Dave Copley showed me the flute
he had made for himself to play. It had just one key: C natural.
A lot of people find it a very useful key. Terry M considers it
the most useful (see my preceding post).
Wow. I’ve been playing Irish flute for close to twenty years now, and in that time I’ve met a lot of people playing keyless flutes while waiting for a keyed flute. I was one of those keyless guys myself for many years. And in all that time, I’ve never met a keyless flute player who said “I’ve gotta get a keyed flute so I can have that C natural key.” If this legion of lovers of the C nat key is really out there, how in the world is it that I’ve never run into even one of them?
If this legion of lovers of the C nat key is really out there, how in the world is it that I’ve never run into even one of them?
No idea why…
I’ve met very few flute players that play keyed flutes here in italy, and at least two of them use the C nat key extensively. I can imagine that in ireland and USA there will be much more people that uses it… I don’t think i’ll ever be one of them.
Why do I keep being dragged into this? I don’t use keys much at all, really, and don’t know many ITM players that use the C nat key at all. I never said, or meant to imply, that I did, only that some must, as makers keep including them. Of course, they’re in the keyed flute business. Most ITM players rarely use keys, in my experience, and those that do, do sparingly. But don’t quote me on that. Seriously.
… You did get my point (which, happily, I still agree with) - the C nat. key always seemed un-natural to me. That said, a pint non-essential? Hmm…