Kerry Songbird review and pictures

Chris,
Please forgive the long message…but I couldn’t really figure out a way to sum up my position without sounding short. :wink:

I don’t feel uncomfortable about Phil’s new whistle line. We don’t really know whether the songbird is an attempted imitation at any whistle. I have a Feadog and a Walton’s whose mouthpieces look scarily similar. I have an old feadan, whose mouthpiece looks very similar to my acorn and my generations (though each has a different amount of “bump” on the labium). Was someone copying someone else in the design of these whistles? Perhaps, perhaps not. But unless someone has a patent on a design, taking an existing design, reverse-engineering it, and producing a ‘better’ version is a time-honored American tradition. The first sentence of a paper’s abstract (out of UC Berkley) sums up the position nicely (http://www.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/PSam’rev.htm) The “right” to reverse engineer an existing product, and develop a competing product, has generally been well accepted in traditional manufacturing contexts. In a similar vein, you can buy “off-brand” versions of colognes and perfumes, and just about every grocery store in the US (dunno about other countries) carries ‘store-brand’ or ‘generic’ versions of just about everything ‘name brand’ in the store. I don’t mean to imply that Phil’s whistle is an ‘off brand’ whiste…I don’t know one way or the other. From the review, it’s evidently a nice-sounding instrument.

Perhaps Phil looked at (or bought, or whatever) a few high-end whistles, and tried to incorporate some of their elements in his new line. I see nothing nefarious about that, and would expect that many whistle craftsmen have done the same. Then again, perhaps Phil didn’t, and there are just similar-looking designs on the market. I don’t think it really matters one way or the other, though.

On 2002-03-02 18:32, ChrisLaughlin wrote:
Um, is that not exactly like the old style Burke, minus the tuning slide? Does anyone else feel a little uncomfortable about this?
Chris

It does look REMARKABLY like the Burke original WBB…

I wouldn’t get too caught up it comparisons to other whistles vis-a-vis copying. A whistle is a pretty simple thing. there’s only so much you vary things. It’s amazing how much variety there is in designs considering the constraints. Does a Gen not look like a Feadog/Clare/Oak/Acorn etc. The only Burke wbb i’ve seen had the fipple and body the same diameter and the tuning slide was larger diameter. Looked like a Hoover brass on steroids. And i’m not implying that Mack copied Mike either.
Cheers,
jb

On 2002-03-02 19:24, Bretton wrote:
Is the blade made of the same metal as the body? In one photo the blade looks like a different material.

-Brett

Brett,
I am not sure of the names of all the technical parts of whistles, but I will do my best to answer your questions.

The fipple looks like, to me, a separate piece with a square hole in the front of it. The fipple was then glued on to the tube/body. Part of the body is sticking up above the glued-on area, showing through the square hole or window on the fipple (this part of the tube is unfinished–without the nice shiny silver color–but definitely the top part of the tube, I believe).

When I first saw this design I was a little unsure about it because it has a little ledge created by the top of the tube showing past the square window, thereby creating an area that will be hard to clean out if it gets some gunk in it later on. (These are just my thoughts in comparison to the plastic mouthpieces on my Feadog, Walton, etc., which have a sloping ramp coming out of that area, which I think would be easier to clean.)

Who knows–time will tell.

Edited to add: Is the windway curved (completely, or just the top) ?

If by windway you mean the part you put in your mouth where you blow air into, yes, it is all curved down to the square window area of the fipple. It looks similar to a Susato mouthpiece in the way it is curved, except it is a longer curve than the Susato one.

I hope this answers your questions.
:slight_smile:


Brownja,
I completely agree with you. Like my husband said, “It’s a whistle–how much variation can you get?” There’s bound to be a lot of similar designs. I don’t mind at all.

\


MCM Transatlantic Whistle Detective Agency - no case too small.
Branches in London and Salt Lake City

[ This Message was edited by: Cees on 2002-03-03 13:22 ]

Thanks for a well thought-out review, Cees.
The whistle looks beautiful, and I see what you meant about the possiblility of spit/gunk collecting in the fipple window. Glad to hear this isn’t a problem with the whistle fully warmed up.

The whistle certainly looks smart, nice clean lines. Is this the final production model? I’m slightly suprised to see no maker’s name or mark visible, I’d want my name stamped into that thing if it was my design, but that would presumably add to production costs at no benefit to the player. Is there any clue as to the intended market price yet?

Finally, would it be possible to post a close up of the fingerholes? I’d like to see if they’re chamfered, and it’s hard to make out on the other picture. If possible, with a ruler alongside so we can judge the spacing?

cheers, Martin

Martin,
I’ll see what I can do about the pictures. I’m sure my husband can help me take some more. (What does “chamfered” mean? I’ve heard people use it before–but I’m not sure of the meaning.)

I’ll e-mail Phil about the market price and also ask if this is a final model or not (I don’t know if it is or not).

:slight_smile:

Hi Cees,

chamfered means the edges are rounded off, not square. It helps me to do slides if the edges are a little rounded, and can feel a little more comfortable under the fingers.

You could use the word bevelled, but I think that has a slightly different meaning.

cheers, Martin

In woodworking, chamfer is just angle cutting the square corner and bevel is tapering the entire edge. I think this also the same in the glass countertop business. On thin materials (like the tone holes in a whistle) it probably makes little difference which term is used.

On 2002-03-03 02:36, Wandering_Whistler wrote:
. . .The first sentence of a paper’s abstract (out of UC Berkley) sums up the position nicely The “right” to reverse engineer an existing product, and develop a competing product, has generally been well accepted in traditional manufacturing contexts. . . just about every grocery store in the US (dunno about other countries) carries ‘store-brand’ or ‘generic’ versions of just about everything ‘name brand’ in the store. . .

I wonder if Phil would consider anodizing one of these white with black stencil letters “WHISTLE” :wink:

Oh, maybe not.

On a serious note, on the similarities of whistlesmith’s development. I brought my brass traditional bore Hoover to Mike Copeland’s shop. Mike looked at it briefly with some scrutiny and described to me, in terms I would have used, exactly how it sounded. Then he played it to confirm what he predicted. Mike began another sentence, then stopped with a coontemplative look on his face. He went into his office, opened a drawer with scores of Copeland Prototype whistles. Somewhere near the bottom, he pulled out a whistle that Mack may not be able to distinguish from his whistles. Mack’s whistles and Mike Copeland’s whistles are about as far apart as possible in terms of volume and niche. Yet both came up with the same design at one point. Mack improved his and brought it to production, where Mike C. chose a different design and niche all togehter (at a much earlier date). I brought that up just to confirm that independent arrivals on a similar design are quite possible. Phil’s new whistle does have characteristics of the old Burke’s and of Silkstone’s. O’Briain, Overton, Cheiftain (Phil), Spillane, Lambe, and the now defuncked Kelly all have a similarity of being made from an aluminum alloy tube. The Kelly was truely unremarkable in it’s playability, where as my Bernie Overton Low D is amazing.

The big question is how do they sound?

… the now defuncked Kelly…

Mark do I understand this right? I take it Mr Kelly modified his original design to make it less suitable for black music.

Or did he decide the whistle was a complete funck-up and successfully tried to improve it somewhat?

On 2002-03-04 14:27, StevieJ wrote:

… the now defuncked Kelly…

Mark do I understand this right? I take it Mr Kelly modified his original design to make it less suitable for black music.

Or did he decide the whistle was a complete funck-up and successfully tried to improve it somewhat?

You are correct. It is absolutely impossible to play “Brick House” or “Super Freak” on Mr’ Kelly’s whistles.

On 2002-03-04 14:43, Mark_J wrote:
You are correct. It is absolutely impossible to play “Brick House” or “Super Freak” on Mr’ Kelly’s whistles.

I’d love to hear someone try though.

Ain’t that a lovely picture? Har har har…

Maybe George Clinton will play a (pre-defuncking) Kelly on the next funckadelic cd.

Kerry Songbird Whistle Review

First of all let me congratulate Phil on the creation of a really nice instrument. Whether or not this instrument resembles any other is in my opinion irrelevant. Like has been said already, there is only so much you can do with the design of such a simple instrument. As long as there are no patent laws been violated, no harm done.

Like Cees, I have not had too much experience with High-End whistles prior to this one – although I rec’d a Burke Brass Narrow Bore D on the same day as I rec’d the Songbird. Prior to that I have played mainly Generations and my beloved Dixon High D.

The first thing I noticed about the whistle was how nice it felt in my hands. It is definitely heavier than the low-end whistles and also heavier than the Burke Narrow-Bore. The design, as can be seen from the photos, is a one-piece non-tunable whistle all made of aluminum. I really like this construction both for looks and playability. The whistle is in tune in the first octave but tends to be slightly flat in the upper second octave – I’m sure this is something that can easily be fixed. If you look closely, the top three holes are all the same size – not sure if this is why but when I compared it to other whistles it looks different.

This to me is a relatively loud whistle, and will definitely hold its own in a session – although not too loud. I believe that the flared end adds to the volume somewhat. It has, in my opinion, high breath requirements, as the windway is wide. The volume balance across the octaves is good, with smooth low-to-high octave transitions – no shrill squeaking in the upper second octave that you get in some cheaper models. It has a nice tone full and round. Also I found that the best way to play C-Nat is to half hole the top hole.

The whistle definitely needs to be warmed up before you can get the full benefit from it – otherwise it clogs a bit. The fact that it is not tunable may be a drawback to some people.

Overall, like I said at the beginning, a really nice product.

Great review, Gerry.

I e-mailed Phil Hardy yesterday with some questions. He answered that this model is going to have one or two minor tweaks but should enter the market “in the near future” pretty much as-is.

He also said that he is coming out with a tunable Songbird soon, and when I asked about pricing, he said to watch the Whistle Shop as they will be selling the whistles when they are on the market.

Cees

Cees,

The whistle is so nice looking. You are so lucky to have received one for free. That was really nice of Phil Hardy to send a few of those out.
You did a great job on your review for the whistle. Everything was really nice. I couldn’t have done it better myself. I am looking forward to seeing the whistle in person.

~Mimi

You did a really fine job on the review. it made me want one. By the way, how much do they cost and how would one order?

Paulsdad,
Thanks for your kind words. I really appreciate it. I contacted Thom at http://www.thewhistleshop.com/ and he said they would be getting a shipment of Kerry Songbirds in about a week, and he isn’t sure on the price yet, but they will probably be about $90. So I guess you will be able to order them online there, if you want.

Cees

but…

but…

I don’t have 90 bucks!

pouts profusely

//Firefly waves to the masses// First of all, I think I should start this review off with a massive apology to Phil Hardy, as by now he is probably thinking that I absconded into the fourth dimension with his Songbird, and had no intention of reviewing it here. What has in fact happened between the time he sent the Songbird to my address in America, is that it has followed me to Japan, and then to Taiwan, where I did not have Internet access and couldn't post this review. Anyway, now that I'm back in America again, I am finally able to post my thoughts on the instrument?with the added benefit of having a considerable amount of Songbird playing experience behind me. So, again, apologies for the extreme lateness of this review - I'm more than a little embarassed by how long it's taken me (!!!) and bombs away?

I have played more cheapie whistle varieties than I care to mention, but I think Cees already covered the "Songbird vs. Inexpensive whistle" ground nicely in her review, so no need for me to reiterate on that front. I do own, and frequently play, a Burke Al-Pro, which is the whistle I mostly found myself comparing and contrasting the Songbird to.

The Songbird is a very, very handsome instrument, aluminum, but is a much more solid whistle than any other aluminum models I own. I think this whistle could take a sound beating and still come out on top, but of course, this is not a theory I plan to be testing any time soon! In fact, the Songbird definitely is the most substantial whistle I have in my possession. While the bore itself is not noticeably larger than that of, say, my Al-Pro, the body is about twice as thick. This added weight took a little getting used to at first, what with me being used to lighter whistles, but from what I've seen, a lot of C&F'ers like heavier whistles, so this should come as good news to you guys! At any rate, the whistle has very good balance, so although the extra weight felt a little weird to me, I didn't suffer any handicap in the least to my playing.

The machining on the body is very sleek. The finger holes are noticeably larger on the E and D notes, but it's nothing that can't easily be covered by one's fingers. In fact, in many cases I prefer larger holes on a whistle, as this lets me half-hole notes with greater ease and precision. So points go to the Songbird on this respect.

As mentioned before, the Songbird is not tunable. However, the instrument is very nicely in tune with itself. Cnat works equally well half-holed or played OXX OOO. As I have currently entered a phase of experimenting with roles on Cnat, I'm thankfull for the OXX OOO fingering.

The blade (I think that's what it's called; I'm not terribly proficient with my whistle part terminology) is indeed made from a different material than the body, but they suit each other nicely. There's a little bit of a downward curve on the mouthpiece that is noticably different than the mouthpiece design of any other pennywhistle I've played. Just thought I'd mention this fact although it neither bothers me nor effects my playing ability.

The tone of the Songbird is almost identical to that of my Burke Al-Pro, strong and pure, but not too sweet. Since I'm a fan of the Al-Pro's sound, I consider this to be a good thing. As I seem to remember some people mentioning that they liked the Al-Pro aside from its (lack of) weight, the Songbird might be a nice alternative for anyone looking for a more solid whistle but with comparable sound. The only noticeable difference between the two is that the upper octave notes on the Songbird seem a little bit harsher than those of the Al-Pro, but this could just be my ear, and not the instrument itself.

Ornamentation sounds beautifully on this whistle. Cuts and taps come out clearly, while not sounding heavier or more pronounced than they should. I took some of my fastest tunes, loaded the heck out of them with ornamentation, and taped my playing. For some reason, I was expecting the ornaments on the Songbird to be muddier than those of my other whistles; maybe this has to do with the fact that the Songbird is a heavier instrument, but at any rate, ornaments come out crisply and clearly.

Condensation or spit what-have-you will be a problem if you don't warm this instrument up before playing. However, having played the Songbird continuously for about 15 minutes or so, even without warming it up in any fashion, I found that while condensation does occur, it does not occur to an unmanageable degree. So, although it's always a good idea to warm up any whistle before playing, you can pull this instrument out of your pocket and play it without much degradation of tone or playability.

The breath requirement for this instrument is pretty high as compared to the others I own. I find myself getting slightly light-headed if I play the Songbird for a protracted length of time. This probably has to do more with me than the Songbird itself; after all, my other whistles don't take a lot of air to play well. I think I have for the first time encountered what you guys refer to as "back pressure!" Anyway, this didn't cause any real problems after I had adjusted to it.

One's attack has to be fairly forceful when playing this whistle. Octave pops are possible but not to be undertaken lightly - you have to concentrate on what you're doing to make the transition. Also, as someone who does not tongue often, but rather separates notes by stopping the flow of breath from my throat, I found myself having to make a fairly large adjustment to my playing with the Songbird. In order to get a crisp, decent sounding note, one has to tongue it - guttural stops will not work on this whistle. Again, this is not a problem itself, but it did necessitate a rather large adjustment in my usual playing technique, which is not a bad thing.

Perhaps the most interesting thing about the Songbird is that there is a major (more so than with any of my other whistles) discrepancy between what I hear while I'm playing, and what the listener hears. While playing this whistle, I hear what seems to be a very loud and obvious hiss over the tone of the notes, especially in the second octave. I was so disconcerted by this that I taped myself playing to see if the hiss was as noticeable to the listener as it was to myself. It isn't; in fact, the hiss, although clearly audible to me while playing, is nonexistent in the whistle tone the listener hears! I don't know if this is a feature of just my whistle or all of the Songbirds, but I thought I'd mention it, because while it seems jarring to me while I'm playing the whistle, it isn't something which will be noticed by any audience I might have.

So, my final verdict is that this is a sleek little instrument that I find myself bringing out to play frequently. As it is well made, nicely in tune, and very attractive to look at, I can't think of any reason why not to recommend it to someone who might consider buying it. It has good volume, a nice tone, and is easy to handle. Again, apologies to Mr. Hardy for taking an ice age to get this review written - and if the rest of ya have any questions or comments on the above, please feel free to pop 'em to me! Other than that, I'm glad to be back home and back on the Board again!