I’m certainly not angry…just really surprised by your statements, which seemed to me to be overly broad and a bit vague. Classical music today has much of its roots in traditional music of Europe. And the small regional styles (sometimes only as large as a particular isolated village) directly influenced the classical composers who come from that particular area. This is stuff you learn in 7th grade music appreciation class (or at least I did years ago). Classical music is more prolific if all you use to judge it is radio air play, CD sales and high brow concerts.
As I stated before, I too thoroughly enjoy a great concert - however even getting together as a group of classical musicians you still have a group of classical musicians playing classical music. It’s not a session, nor do I imagine that folks regularly are composing sonatas or seeing how many different variations they can add to Vivaldi’s works just to make it their ‘own’.
The traditions are fundamentally different now - even though they had very similar starts. Still, with players like Galway, simply put he is a classical musician period. He can play tin whistle sure, but he will never play with the same flair or keen sense of style as others have and will. This is not a fault of Mr. Galway, just his training.
I’ve even heard Jerry O’Sullivan play uilleann pipes along with entire symphonies and while it’s lovely, it does sound very out of place to me. The two styles are so different that while you can make the notes work, the feel of the instrument and the traditional styles just don’t blend well with orchestral arrangements. I challenge anyone who feels that traditional music in general and Irish music in particular isn’t as intellectually stimulating as classical. If you can’t hear the same level of complexity, you’re not listening hard enough! Seriously! Perhaps, it may also be that most (or all) that you’ve head has been Enya / Joanie Madden / Davy Spillane / Movie Soundtrack stuff, or even much of the Chieftains later recordings. This type of music, while enjoyable to listen to, is not representative of the Irish tradition as a whole. But again, if this type of music is the basis of your assessment, then I fully understand why you would feel the way you do.
Thanks for your post, Brian.
Enya - LOL. Are we going to play the name-dropping game now?
Irish music is generally just dance-tunes, most of the time 2 x 8 bars with repeats, using only a few standard keys, only a handful of different rythms. There is a single melodic line, no elements of counterpoint, if there is harmony they are generally just simple chords. The variations are either just ornaments, or variations around the basic melody, respecting the same harmonic sequence.
Good traditional players usually have an amazing technique and some are real virtuosos on their instruments, their playing is brillant and expressive.
This music is said to go back no further than 18th century. There has not been much of an evolution during that time.
Between 1700 and 2000, classical music has had a tremendous evolution - even if many people don’t love the actual results, i.e. contemporary music is not very popular.
Classical composers have not learnt their profession in the streets or pubs. They learnt from their elders, travelled around to find a renowned musician who could teach them. So this tradition was passed on from one generation to the next. But instead of just preserving it, they renewed it constantly, trying to enhance the musical language.
As for the structure of a classical work, you have certainly learnt in your 7th grade music class that it takes a bit more than just repeating 2 x 8 bars over and over to create a symphony. I’m sure you are also an expert in writing 4-part fugues and the like, as it is no more difficult to you than writing a hornpipe.
I believe that traditional musicians can be as much of a virtuoso than classical musicians. But the musical structure of a great classical work is definitely more complex than the structure of a traditional dance tune.
I am surprised at the modernist formalist viewpoint expressed by you, Claudine.
British musicologist Christopher Small, in his book “Music, Society, Education,” examines the modernist Eurocentric idea that Western Classical music is superior to all other musics because of its architectomic construction. In doing so, he explores major assumptions about the nature of music and its musical values from a Western art music perpective; these values are tacitly assumed to be of universal validity, but it is Small’s contention (and I concur with him) that these tacit assumptions are in fact, unique to post-Renaissance western music.
Small states:
"Of all the arts, music, probably because of its almost complete lack of explicit verbal or representational content, most clearly reveals the basic assumptions of a culture. So close are we to the music of the great post-Renaissance tradition, which lasted roughly from 1600-1910, that for many music lovers it occupies the whole field of their musical perception, and becomes the unique embodiment of what they think of as the eternal verities of the art. But as Harry Partch observed, ‘Music…has only two ingredients that might be called God-given-the capacity of a body to vibrate and produce sound and the mechanism of the human ear which registers it…All else in the art of music, which may be studied and analyzed, was created by man or is implicit in human acts, and is therefore subject to fiercest scrutiny.’
In other words, certain assumptions of our ‘classical’ music tradition, which we think of as basic and universal elements of all music, are very far indeed from being so. Further, we need to disabase ourselves of the delusion that Western music is the supreme achievement of mankind in the realm of sound, and that other cultures merely represent stages in an evolution towards that achievement. Other cultures make other assumptions and are interested in other aspects of organized sound; they are neither inferior or superior, only different, and comparitive value judgements between ourselves and them are at best irrelevent, at worst tending to reinforce our dangerous delusion of European cultural superiority."
Our Western system of equal temperment, handed down to us by the masters that you name, is looked down upon by many of the world’s musical cultures as facile and largely uninteresting due to the fact that it is so restrictive. According to Weber, “temperament takes from our ears some of the delicacy which gave the decisive flavor to the melodious refinement of ancient music culture.”
The formalist ideology, of which you are a proponent, derives itself from German analytic philosophy whereby meaning is revealed through close analysis, thus enjoyment gained. Research has shown, however, that the intricate mathematical relationships uncovered through musicological analysise, are impossible to achieve without the aid of visual representation systems. The problem with this is that such visual schematics were not intended to be a part of the listening process. It is unlikely, further, that Beethoven or Mozart ever intended their works to be heard more than five or six times in a lifetime, which further detracts from the formalist case.
I am not a musicologist, I am a music educator with a Master’s degree in Conducting, and am currently completeing a Phd. in Music Education. I have spent the last 20 years teaching Western classical music to children and it took me most of this time to realize just how culturally biased such views are.
I’m not trying to infer that Enya is all we listen to in the Irish style, only that it is this type of music that most everyone will latch on to as “traditional” in style. Of course, nothing could be farther from the truth. (That being said, I’ll admit I like much of Enya’s stuff!) But I also know this new age-ish contemporary stuff isn’t at all representative of the tradition’s roots in a clear manner.
You really think so?? Wow. I bet I could change your mind if ever you happen to come down to one of our sessions some time!! Perhaps pick up a CD of Lúnasa, Boys of the Lough, Bothy Band, Déanta, Lasairfhíona Ní Chonaola, Seán O’Riada, Willie Clancy, Johnny Doran or Cran. I think any one of these groups or individuals would pleasantly surprise you in their levels of depth, complexity and arrangement of their music. “just dance tunes” is about as cliché anymore as Danny Boy! LOL
I agree completely with your first sentence here, but not at all with the second. The music of course goes back further even than the Roman occupation of the islands. You would be correct if you assumed it was not the same music you’ll hear in session and on recordings today, and this fact alone negates your last sentence there. HUGE change, but always with it’s core in the same place.
Interestingly enough, I haven’t heard anyone re-writing the classic works of the great composers, though I have heard many modern works as well. I’d be interested to learn what sort of evolution the music has undergone in your opinion. I am aware that classical music is used for movie soundtracks just as Irish music has been. But I’m also aware that what you hear in soundtracks and what sometimes appears as backing on top pop artists CDs now is not representative of classical music as a whole. So while classical music has been used in different settings as well, I haven’t seen it move much from where it was several hundred years ago. (which I find fascinating and a testament to it’s quality in many respects) yet still rigid.
Most Irish musicians who are thought to be the greats of the tradition (both now and in the past) never learned their tunes on the street as you mention here. In fact, learning from their elders and traveling around to find world-class teachers was as important to traditional musicians three hundred years ago as it is today! If you listen to any of the earliest recordings of trad. music, like much of the wax cylinder recordings of the old masters, and compare that to what is being played today in the pubs, on the streets, in concert halls or whatever,
I bet you could hear the difference after about ten seconds. I.Trad. has evolved like any other musical form will over time.
I find this comment particularly amusing. Orchestral compositions are written for what: a hundred people?? More?? Yet in that huuuuge body of work (which again is very impressive in and of itself) you have sections! While you may have twenty violins, they are generally found to be playing the same part. If they don’t, the conductor lets them know in none too subtle a fashion!
Claudine, once again, you’ve got to remember a few things. Firstly, the Irish tradition has been until only recently an almost exclusively aural tradition. No one went to their teacher and asked if he had the sheet for Letrim’s Fancy, or Carolan’s Concerto. It was learned by ear and memorized. Now some classical musicians are certainly capable of learning and memorizing entire symphonies, and then playing them note for note, but the majority (unless there has been some MAJOR change in concerts since the mid-nineties) still rely on the sheet. While the traditional musician does indeed have a smaller work regarding number of notes, they are also freed to view the piece as a whole – not just the current movement. And no symphony musician is watching AND listening to what everyone else is doing for their own cues. Of course, these come from the conductor.
Again, I challenge you to expand your knowledge of traditional Irish music and perhaps world music on the whole as well. I really do think you’ll be pleasantly supprised. I hope your Christmas was a good one! Anyone else going to play a St. Stephens Day party tonight?
I’m not Claudine, but would someone be willing to point me in the direction of some really creative, melodically interesting Irish music? Most of what I have is pretty monotonous, and I’d be thrilled for some pointers!
If none of these excite you it may be time to either pick a different hobby or check your pulse! Seriously, it amazes me that so many seem to look down on this type of music as somehow inferior to classical or whichever style happens to be “the best” this week.
If this music is S_O_ bad…go play some form that you DO like! Seems simple enough to me anyway.
I think it’s worth mentioning that the whistle isn’t exclusively an Irish trad instrument, and the movie mentioned would logically use music that isn’t specifically Irish trad, either.
I don’t see why this thread should deteriorate into a shouting match aimed at determining which music is superiour in order to put down another. My inital reply to this was intended in the same vein as Janice’s post above, that the different types of of music have their own merits and should be looked at in that way. There is not a question of superiority at stake here. I just don’t like to see one or the other dismissed.
When I think of the great players I think of the tortured genius of Tommy Potts, Willie Clancy’s version of Rakish Paddy recorded by Paddy Hill in 1958. I remember the music Martin Rochford played in his kitchen, music that to this day never fails to make my spine tingle, I remember sitting down with Micho Russell, tunes pouring out of him, the music a perfect extension of the person. I value the intense natural musicality of my dear friend Kitty Hayes singing her songs, playing her concertina, I cherish Brid Donoghue’s whistle-playing, the intense sadness of Tommy Peoples’ music. The intricacies in the fiddleplaying of Paddy Canny or the dazzling depths of the piping of Seamus Ennis. The singing of Sorcha ni Gluairim. I could go on, there’s all that music straight from the heart reaching out, sharing the innermost feelings. I can be equally moved by Pablo Casals’ playing of the Bach Cello sonatas [which I have been re-visiting a lot lately] or many other classical musicians. Each have their own merit each musician like that is as valuable as the next one, whatever music they play.
I don’t care for people who put down music they know maybe not so well as ‘monotonous’ or ‘uninteresting’. It’s sheer ignorance I hear in that.
In a discussion on the piping board, about hte relevance of older styles and archive recordings, Harry Bradley said something relevant to the present discussion and I would like to finish on here. ‘The open ear hears the most’ he said. And right he was.
[edited to add the first bit that was lost pasting the text into the initial posting, and then again to eliminate the typos]
Wow, if I ruffled some feathers, I hadn’t meant to. I asked for you trad-evangelists to help orient me. I personally never made a statement that all Irish music was “bad”.
Anyway back to the topic of this thread: I hope to see the new LOTR movie this weekend!
I’ve been listening for this music for less than a year, and it took me awhile to access sources I could listen to without buying CD’s, which I can’t afford.
Finding the Kennedy Center’s Millenium Stage concert series archives and then RTE Radio1’s weekly shows, Ceili House and Late Session has helped me find examples of music that speaks to me.
I mentioned Martin Hayes fiddling and the East Clare style in another thread, and Peter was kind enough to email me a clip of Martin Rochford, whose influence you can hear in Martin Hayes’ playing.
Here, again, is the link to the Kennedy Center archives. There’s a wonderful concert by Lunasa (I prefer the more recent of the two listed there), and a concert by The Wrigley Sisters (Scottish, actually, but just wonderful, IMO. Again, I prefer the more recent of their two concerts).
I have saved two small RealPlayer files that link to RTE Radio1 performances by Martin Hayes, and Danu playing selections from their newest CD, The Road Less Traveled. I’ve listened to a performance of theirs on the Kennedy Center Archives, and I found the more recent, RTE Radio1 performance to be much better. Neither of these programs is available on the RTE Radio1 site (the links get updated weekly), but I’ll be happy to email the linking files to anyone who wants them.
Those are a few examples that I’m personally attracted to. As I said, I’m just getting started, and I expect to find many, many more as this journey unfolds.
I do hear Irish traditional music that I find monotonous; reels and jigs nicely, “correctly” played, but sounding formulaic and not imaginative to my ear. But I also hear Irish traditional music that sounds absolutely inspired, masterfully played, that gets right to the heart. It’s worth seeking out.
So Dhigbee, you do realize that by terming respondents to this thread as “trad-evangelists” and defining the Irish music that you listen to as “pretty monotonous” and not “melodically interesting” that you are passing judgement and making implications and assumptions regarding the inferiority of any music that is not Western classical art music?
It amazes me that this thread has turned into a kind of snooty pissing contest.
It dismays me to see what looks like hostility towards classical music and classical musicians in some of these posts.
I am equally dismayed to see posts that seems to dismiss traditional music as shallow when compared to classical.
My own suggestion: every now and again force youself to listen to a bit of what you think you don’t like. You just might could learn something from it.
janice, thanks for your very interesting post.
I’m certainly a person for whom most of that text is true. The Monteverdi - Debussy period is the greatest form of music for me. I am also completely fascinated by gothic cathedrals. This is the culture of my ancestors, the one I have grown up with, it’s the language that I understand. Standing in the centre of Europe, I have naturally an eurocentric view on music and arts.
I have some vague ideas about arab music using 1/4 tones or such stuff. There are most certainly musical subtleties which I can’t appreciate as I can’t understand them. So while I do not really think that european music is superior to other forms of music, I just feel that it’s the one that I understand best, the one that touches my heart.
Perhaps I have listened to lots of CDs by Lunasa (not very traditional themselves), Boys of the Lough (I’m a huge fan of Cathal McConnell btw), Bothy Band, Planxty, a lot of irish flute players from Paddy Carty to Harry Bradley, some fiddlers, some duets or trios etc …
And what do they play? reels, jigs, hornpipes, polkas … Isn’t that considered to be dance music?
It’s not about rewriting old works (what a strange idea!). It’s about writing new music in a new style.
So you can’t hear any difference between Josquin Desprez and Igor Stravinsky? In that case, let’s stop the discussion at this point.
Seriously, it amazes me that so many seem to look down on this type of music as somehow inferior to classical or whichever style happens to be “the best” this week.
Seems simple enough to me anyway.