is it the player or the flute...

Irish Flute
1

here are some thoughts for discussion…
in reading some of the current threads, which have been very interesting, i notice that invariably the arguement gets waterdowned to this: that the player will sound like themself on virtually any flute. but i am not so sure if that is accurate. i think that “stylistically” we shoot for the same goal in playing the flute, regardless of the flute, and our sound is shaped by our abilities (strengths/weaknesses,etc.) so we remain the same in that regard but different flutes have different tonal charactersitics. for example, a difference can be heard with matt molloy, kevin crawford, seamus egan etc. as they have switched flutes during their respective careers. and with our very own james peeples soundclips there can be heard a difference.
i guess that if the flute is inconsequential, then why all this fuss about different flutes from different makers.
i believe the flute has a bigger part in that sound. another example, olwell flutes (only for an example) do sound different when played by different players, and that they pretty much share the same tonal traits in my view. and yes, there will be those exceptions to the rule but by-and-large olwell flutes are limited to a spectrum of tonal dynamics. even flutes from the same maker can sound a bit different. sometimes the more serious the player the more particuliar they are about their flute(s). response, playability, tuning, breath requirements, volume, tonal dynamics, clarity and strength of tone thru out a range of notes, etc. seem to influence the sound.

seperating the character traits of the player from the instrument itself sometimes isn’t easy but i say the flute definitely makes a difference. i don’t think i would sound the same on a hamilton as on a grinter or an olwell or a byrne or a mcgee. on some flutes i might sound similiar, but i don’t think all flutes are capable of producing the same tone or sound (nor are the makers trying to accomplish that) . and so to me, that makes it interesting and fun to try different flutes. as i grow in my playing and in my taste in flutes, there some definite traits i look for in a flute, and if it doesn’t have it then i tend to lose interest. when i was “wanting to be heard” or when i “wanted to sound like so-and-so” then i gravitated towards flutes that i hoped would help me achieve that.
anyway, those are some thoughts, what are yours?

BTW, i am an associate of mr. levine, so i automatically rate, no qualification necessary.

2

Yes.

3

I think this gets down to how one listens to a player. Stylistically, a player will sound similar on most flutes, especially to a less experienced listener or a non-flute player. Also, a good player will have so much more control over their chosen instrument that they can often, within the parameters of the instrument, make it sound the way they want.

That said, the instrument does have inherent characteristics that I can’t imagine overcoming…but that may just be due to my inexperience (about a year and a half on flute). For example, my antique german 8 key has a significantly different tone than my Seery with the former being much more pure in tone and the Seery having more overtones and a drier prattenesque tone.

While my flute playing experience isn’t that long, I’m not a musical newbie having cut my teeth playing sax for a couple of decades as well as whistle for about 14 years, and I think the above holds true for those instruments as well.

Eric

4

Perhaps.

5

Rama , if you are an associate of Mr Levine ,as you say ,then you qualify to give yourself capital " I "s when talking of yourself !

6

I have 2 flutes… an Olwell Nicholson and a Wilkes R&R, about as different to play as you can get. I can’t imagine them sounding the same to an experienced ear, no matter who is playing them, … but, I could be wrong :astonished: - Tod

7

Indubitably.

8

Qualification: IMHO…

Of course differing flutes sound different. To observe that a player sounds like himself/herself whichever is being played doesn’t negate this. If I play an X flute which is known to be played by the illustrious Y, however, it will not be given to me to sound like Y unless I slavishly model my playing accordingly, and then the issues of embouchure and other even less alterable factors contribute as well to my sounding like me, or Y by quirk of providence. The flute is a vehicle that has its own character, identity, and potential, but the player’s own identity isn’t going to be cloaked by the flute’s. Illustration: two Hammy players of my acquaintance, one excellent overall, the other excellent in fingering but still working out embouchure issues, had a go at my Olwell. They still sounded like themselves; the coloring inherent in the flutes was different. So did the players sound different on different flutes? Yes. And no. It depends on what angle you’re coming from.

Well. On proofread this looks nice and bombastic. Flute X, player Y, Zzzzzzzzz…

9

just what i thought

10

squarelly so!

11

All.

12

Whenever I visit Clare/Galway I always make sure I get some tunes with Des Mulkere. I take a Hawkes Superior (dated about 1913) and a Rudall & Carte (numbered 3706, if you want to look it up). I give Des the Hawkes and I play the Rudall & Carte. Des once asked me why I do it that way and asked for a try of the Rudall.

After a couple of bars he handed it back. “That’s a girl’s flute” was his opinion. We talking about flutes worth about £2K each here if the recent sale of a Rudall & Carte on e-bay is anything to go by.

Nuff said.

Player or flute? I’d say it was a combination of both. The flute has to perform up to the player’s expectations.

Ken

13

What sort of Rudall Carte would that be ? Cylindrical ? High pitch ?
About 1904/5 they often were I imagine .

14

[quote=“kenr”]

After a couple of bars he handed it back. “That’s a girl’s flute” was his opinion.]


Humpfffffffffff!! :imp:

15

Andrew,

It’s pretty much your bog standard “Rudall type” four piece, post mounted keys, cocus, stamped at the Berners St address. I had the date as somewhere between 1903 and 1925.

This link shows the two flutes either side of a Hammy. The Rudall & Carte is on the left.

http://hometown.aol.co.uk/kenrcktts/page3.html

Ken

16

Ken I’ve just looked at your site - nice one. I have a Bb chanter that Dave Williams made for me and I collected it in the summer of 1982. It looks more like an Egan chanter at the bell end. I think Dave took a trip up to York museum. Anyway nice photos of your set and your flutes. You’ve inspired me to get some photos sorted and put them up. Your piping history resembles mine. I made an agonising start in the early 80’s then a pause of many years Until I finally got to Miltown and a Pat Mitchell piping class in 1996 and I was completely hooked. Now with a recently accquired Wilkes I’m hooked on flute playing. Did Des think prehaps that the Rudall was too easy to sound?

17

Mildly OT, but maybe not …

Interesting experiment with Audacity:

I recorded myself playing The Banshee, basically the same way, on my unlined 6-key Pratten cocus Hamilton. Then I recorded it on my lined-head, 4-key R&R hybrid blackwood Ormiston (with short D foot)

To me, the flutes sound quite different.

But, rather unfortunately, I sound roughly the same. :astonished:

Go figure. (I suppose I should also record it on my Boehm, just to see …)

Another thing I was reminded of in all this – it’s amazing what recording, or even amplification, technology can do. So when we listen to some of these professionals and generally awesome players recorded in studio, it’s good to remember that there are a lot more controllable factors than when listening to them live. And also, it’s good to remember that these players’ personal tastes will also affect the outcome of the recording – effects, mix, what you want to sound like, etc.

One other note: it’s amazing that a flute can sound one way under your ear, but another when recorded or heard out in the room. This is a big thing with fiddle players, and very educational.

I have no qualifications, but plenty of reservations … :wink:

xo,
cat.

P.S. Dana, I would kill to play the 9th (not that I could, but if I could …)! Would also kill to hear you play it. Congratulations!!! Any chance there’s a bootleg anywhere? :smiley:

18

H’mmm. Sometimes I can get a bootleg copy if I ask nicely. It’s terribly done, though, usually just for archive purposes.

Dana

19

Ken ,
The flute you illustrate is anything but a standard Rudall Carte .
Is it conical ?
It comes between the conical simple system one which Larry Mallette has just bought from David Levine ,rather high pitch , I believe , made in 1892 , and mine , shown on Mr McGee’s unusual Rudalls site , which is cylindrical simple system about 1925 .
These are about the rarest thing Rudall Carte made .it is surprising that anyone would knock the tone of yours if it is, in fact , conical .I wouldn’t be surprised if anybody criticizes anything I have , my self esteem being so low after being mauled by Gordon . ( I hope that is not the same Gordon as has been vomiting all over the Yahoo early flute site recently ).

20

Yes! That’s why one of the things people “should” do when trying new flutes or new headjoints is to have a knowledgeable (or at least helpful!)friend listen to you play.

g