Irish style

[Nanohedron]

Sorry; I watched it, but wouldn’t you know - I got distracted by the other videos.

[Ben_Steen]

You’re 3 Xs a nano, Nanohedron. I’d be very concerned if you weren’t distracted away from that clip.

[Nanohedron]

Reptilian shapeshifters, man. They have proof.

[Ben_Steen]

Don’t know what that means, but then you can post whatever response you feel like posting.

Thank you & good night.

[highland-piper]

Writing about musical styles is like writing about sex. If the reader has no experience in the topic, then all the words in the world are pretty pointless.

@benhall.1

BTW, Cathy, there’s something that I’ve been puzzling about to do with hornpipes (and reels) for the last few years. I agree with you that hornpipes seem linked in four pairs of notes whereas reels seem linked in two fours within a bar. However, a very well known musician at a summer school the other year (4 years ago?) suggested that pulses might be two in a bar for hornpipes and four in a bar for reels. It’s had me thinking ever since.

In highland piping we write hornpipes in 2/4. The basic melody structure is written as two groups of four 16th notes. Writing them in 4/4 might have come about as a way to cut the publication cost. Or it might just be a difference of opinion.

[Cathy_Wilde]

@highland-piper

In highland piping we write hornpipes in 2/4. The basic melody structure is written as two groups of four 16th notes. Writing them in 4/4 might have come about as a way to cut the publication cost. Or it might just be a difference of opinion.

I choose B. I still hear them in 2/4. AND NOW, I think I now know why: it’s the way they end. So many hornpipes I know finish with a |quarter note-quarter note|half-note feel. A random survey of the first three hornpipes that came to mind turns up …


X: 1
T:Cork Hornpipe (Harvest Home) %fs1<bb
B:FS1.34b
F:023cork
M:4/4
L:1/8
Q:280
R:Hornpipe
K:D
A2|DAFA DAFA|defe dcBA|eAfA gAfA|(3efe (3dcB (3ABA (3GFE|
DAFA DAFA|defe dcBA|eAfA gece|d2f2 d2
cd|eA~A2 fA~A2|gAfA eA~A2|eAfA gAfA|(3efe (3dcB (3ABA (3GFE|
DAFA DAFA|defe dcBA|eAfA gece|d2f2 d2


X: 1
T:Tomorrow Morning
M:4/4
L:1/8
B:O’Neill’s 1661
K:D
f-e
| dAFA dfed | ecAc egfe | fafd Bged | c2 A2 A2 f-e |
| dAFA dfed | ecAc egfe | fafd Bgec | d2 d2 d2
|: f-g
| afdf a2 g-f | gece g2 f-e | fafd Bged | c2A2A2 f-e |
| dAFA dfed | ecAc egfe | fafd Bgec | d2 d2 d2

X: 1
T:The Plains of Boyle
M:C|
L:1/8
K:D
FG|"D"AFDE FEDF|(3ABA "G"GB "D"AF D2|fedf "A"edce|"G"dBAB “C”=cA"G"BG|
"D"AFDE FEDF|(3ABA "G"GB "D"AF D2|fedB “A”(3ABA GE|
"D"F2 D2 D2:||:fg|"D"afdf "G"g2 fe|
"D"dfed BAFG|(3ABA FA BAFA|A2 FA BAfg|afdf "G"g2 fe|"D"dfed BAFG|
A3 F "A"GBAG|"D"F2 D2 D2:|

Wha-hey! Mystery solved. It’s that “dum-dum duuum” ending that has me hearing them in 2/4. I feel better, anyway

[highland-piper]

Here are a couple published examples from 1905:

http://riffspot.com/music/title/m/marquis-of-huntleys-hornpipe/
http://riffspot.com/music/title/c/coopers-hornpipe/

Harding’s All-Round Collection of Jigs, Reels, and Country Dances

Apparently from a schizophrenic editor. OR maybe just reflecting on two different traditions?

That’s actually a pretty neat book – seems to live up to it’s title

[cboody]

This is just a guess, and I can provide no references for it, but I think the issue of which way to write hornpipes (and perhaps reels too) came from the traditional players who adhered to the “only crochets and quavers” rule. Most of the tunes in the irish tradition that are not in triple meters can be written with just two note lengths. Keeping it to just crochets and quavers meant that learners who wanted to read music really only had to learn about two kinds of notes and the 2 to 1 relationship between them. I suspect books that use other methods of notating the tunes may be folks trained in music where other combinations of notes would not be an issue. Think about the Beethoven slow movements that are notated in 32nd notes and 64th notes! (would that be hemi-semi-quavers and hemi-demi-semi-quavers??) I remember one of my friends telling me about asking an old trad player in Ireland if the last note was a half note (brev?). The response was “there are only two note lengths, crochets and quavers.” My friend ended the transcription with a crochet and a crochet rest.

[Cathy_Wilde]

Sounds perfectly logical to me! Thanks for spelling it out a little better. I’ve gotten confused every darned time I try to tackle the whole crotchet-quaver thing, and take refuge in my “first language.”

[highland-piper]

@cboody

This is just a guess, and I can provide no references for it, but I think the issue of which way to write hornpipes (and perhaps reels too) came from the traditional players who adhered to the “only crochets and quavers” rule. Most of the tunes in the irish tradition that are not in triple meters can be written with just two note lengths.

The number of lengths is independent of the time signature.

Hornpipes, the way they’re played, have three lengths of notes, unless you assume the reader understands the swing and write them straight.

[david_h]

A couple of times at workshops I have heard it suggested to good readers unfamiliar with hornpipes that they look at a bar with 4 triplets, imagine it was a 12/8 bar, then think of the bars with 8 quavers as being in 12/8 with crotchet quaver pairs. It seemed to work as a starting point for getting roughly the right rhythm. Two note lengths and non of those little number 3s.

[highland-piper]

@david_h

A couple of times at workshops I have heard it suggested to good readers unfamiliar with hornpipes that they look at a bar with 4 triplets, imagine it was a 12/8 bar, then think of the bars with 8 quavers as being in 12/8 with crotchet quaver pairs. It seemed to work as a starting point for getting roughly the right rhythm. Two note lengths and non of those little number 3s.

That’s way too much thinking for me – just listen to someone play it the right way and do it like that.

[cboody]

@highland-piper

@cboody

This is just a guess, and I can provide no references for it, but I think the issue of which way to write hornpipes (and perhaps reels too) came from the traditional players who adhered to the “only crochets and quavers” rule. Most of the tunes in the irish tradition that are not in triple meters can be written with just two note lengths.

The number of lengths is independent of the time signature.

Hornpipes, the way they’re played, have three lengths of notes, unless you assume the reader understands the swing and write them straight.

And that is exactly what I assume. swing is there in almost every tradition to some degree or another. To notate it accurately is almost impossible. Doing hornpipes with dotted eighth-sixteenth pairs or quarter eighth paris with triplet indication may make the transcriber happy, but it doesn’t get very close to what really goes on. Listening is, as you say below, the solution.

[david_h]

@cboody

Listening is, as you say below, the solution.

I have a recording of one of the workshops where the ‘more like’ 12/8 message was given. The tune was written ‘dotted’ and a sizeable majority of competent players, good at sight reading but unfamiliar (apparently) with traditional music where confidently overdoing the swing. The leader was playing it more like quarter-eighth and the instruction reigned them in a bit. Those of us trying to learn the tune by ear appreciated that.

Are often they written dotted in collections to look different to reels on the page ?

If it had been written in 12/8 a fair number of us would have assumed it was an slide (until we heard it).

[highland-piper]

@david_h

Are often they written dotted in collections to look different to reels on the page ?

I think they are probably written dotted because it more closely resembles the way they are played.

Funny thing: in modern Highland piping, hornpipes are played pretty much straight, while the reels are played dotted.

Here’s an example – Dowcow Triumph Street playing Flashing Light Syndrome as their opening tune:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/events/ex6g9r/videos/p01fdlg7#p01fdksp